Which 28mm M would you choose?

[pippy]

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10 hours ago, petereprice said:

What is it about the Elmarit that you feel is better than the Voigtlander?

Everything.

To make things clear; there is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with the Voigt. Ultron whatsoever. As I wrote in my earlier post it really is a lovely lens and had I not been given the loan of an Elmarit ASPH I would still be a very happy Ultron user.

On a tangential note; the Elmarit I was loaned was the v2 and the one thing which I didn't like about it was the size of the screw-on hood. The v1, however, uses a smaller style of hood which I happen to prefer.

Philip.

[Jewl]

I have a similar decision to make. As of today, I was all in for the new Summicron! Was not a very big fan of Voigtlaender lately tbh, recently sold a 35mm Nokton as I couldn't see the look anymore. But the price difference and also close focus feature of the CV 28mm 1.5 is quite tempting. Close focus for me is an important selling argument for the cron... Need to see how the CV performs eventually!

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[petereprice]

My biggest concern with CV lenses is production consistency.  In the past with my experience, I’ve had lenses show up with focus issues, weird hardware defects, or general inconsistencies in how haptics.  For instance I had issues with the 50mm f1.5 Nokton which experienced focus shift and a very stiff focus ring with no focus tab.  
With the 35mm f2 Ultron Type II, several users reported stiff or resistant focus action on the lens.  The feeling where it would be smooth for a bit and then feel like it got caught on something while focusing.  I bought one and saw excessive grease from the lens leaking on the lens mount.  
Fred Miranda reported having to buy several Nokton 50mm f1.2 lenses to get one that didn’t experience focus shift. I just bought one that doesn’t appear to have focus shift but this is my third go round with this lens.  My first was fine, but I sold it to fund other lens choices.  My second one definitely had focus shift.  This recent one seems to be ok.  
At the same time one of my favorite lenses that CV makes is the 50 APO-Lanthar.  That lens by all accounts is perfect.  It actually has me questioning whether I still want my 50 lux.  And the focus action is perfectly smooth.  I also find the CV lenses to display the right amount of character.  They have a vintage vibe to them but can quickly convert to a modern look as you stop down.  

So that’s my 2 cents on the Voigtlander lenses.  They are generally great, but sometimes you have to work at getting the right one.  Plus I don’t know if there’s any truth to 6 bit lenses being more optimized to the camera from a color and lens correction perspective.  Especially with wide lenses.

I’m also quite fascinated by the amount of fans for the Elmarit!  I’m intrigued by the praise for an f2.8 lens.  My only hesitation is that I need lenses with more light gathering especially with a camera like the M11-P with high resolution.  In testing Summicron lenses I’ve noticed there is a surprisingly nice marriage between the M11 and the cron when it comes to low light capture.   

[pippy]

47 minutes ago, petereprice said:

...I don’t know if there’s any truth to 6 bit lenses being more optimized to the camera from a color and lens correction perspective.  Especially with wide lenses...

Just a little bit on this matter...

One of my favourite lenses is a Voigtlander 40mm f1.4 Nokton. It was originally bought as a pseudo-50mm (actually 53mm) for use on my (long-gone) M8.2 but really started to shine when the 8 was replaced by an M9-P and it 'returned' to shooting as a 40mm. When used with the 9 the lens was manually dialled-in as the older of the 35mm Summilux options and results were lovely.

Once I acquired my M-D Typ-262, however, I noticed something 'different' in the way it rendered when used at f1.4 and it took me a short while to realise why this should be the case. As there is no screen on the M-D there is no possibility of manually selecting a lens profile. As such there is no in-body lens correction applied and what I was noticing was the light fall-off / vignetting inherent in the Nokton's optical design / performance.

The funny thing is that in the majority of cases I actually like this natural fall-off at f1.4; so much so that when I use it with my Monochrom I do not code the lens even although I have that option available.

Philip.

Edited January 15 by pippy

[rustyrus]

1 hour ago, petereprice said:

My biggest concern with CV lenses is production consistency.  In the past with my experience, I’ve had lenses show up with focus issues, weird hardware defects, or general inconsistencies in how haptics.  For instance I had issues with the 50mm f1.5 Nokton which experienced focus shift and a very stiff focus ring with no focus tab.  
With the 35mm f2 Ultron Type II, several users reported stiff or resistant focus action on the lens.  The feeling where it would be smooth for a bit and then feel like it got caught on something while focusing.  I bought one and saw excessive grease from the lens leaking on the lens mount.  
Fred Miranda reported having to buy several Nokton 50mm f1.2 lenses to get one that didn’t experience focus shift. I just bought one that doesn’t appear to have focus shift but this is my third go round with this lens.  My first was fine, but I sold it to fund other lens choices.  My second one definitely had focus shift.  This recent one seems to be ok.  
At the same time one of my favorite lenses that CV makes is the 50 APO-Lanthar.  That lens by all accounts is perfect.  It actually has me questioning whether I still want my 50 lux.  And the focus action is perfectly smooth.  I also find the CV lenses to display the right amount of character.  They have a vintage vibe to them but can quickly convert to a modern look as you stop down.  

So that’s my 2 cents on the Voigtlander lenses.  They are generally great, but sometimes you have to work at getting the right one.  Plus I don’t know if there’s any truth to 6 bit lenses being more optimized to the camera from a color and lens correction perspective.  Especially with wide lenses.

I’m also quite fascinated by the amount of fans for the Elmarit!  I’m intrigued by the praise for an f2.8 lens.  My only hesitation is that I need lenses with more light gathering especially with a camera like the M11-P with high resolution.  In testing Summicron lenses I’ve noticed there is a surprisingly nice marriage between the M11 and the cron when it comes to low light capture.   

Leica unfortunately has the same issues lately- Look at the 35 Lux release- I have a brand new 50 Lux with a focus ring that almost locks up- HAs to go back to New Jersey for repair-

 

 

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, petereprice said:

My biggest concern with CV lenses is production consistency.  In the past with my experience, I’ve had lenses show up with focus issues, weird hardware defects, or general inconsistencies in how haptics.  For instance I had issues with the 50mm f1.5 Nokton which experienced focus shift and a very stiff focus ring with no focus tab.  
With the 35mm f2 Ultron Type II, several users reported stiff or resistant focus action on the lens.  The feeling where it would be smooth for a bit and then feel like it got caught on something while focusing.  I bought one and saw excessive grease from the lens leaking on the lens mount.  
Fred Miranda reported having to buy several Nokton 50mm f1.2 lenses to get one that didn’t experience focus shift. I just bought one that doesn’t appear to have focus shift but this is my third go round with this lens.  My first was fine, but I sold it to fund other lens choices.  My second one definitely had focus shift.  This recent one seems to be ok.  
At the same time one of my favorite lenses that CV makes is the 50 APO-Lanthar.  That lens by all accounts is perfect.  It actually has me questioning whether I still want my 50 lux.  And the focus action is perfectly smooth.  I also find the CV lenses to display the right amount of character.  They have a vintage vibe to them but can quickly convert to a modern look as you stop down.  

So that’s my 2 cents on the Voigtlander lenses.  They are generally great, but sometimes you have to work at getting the right one.  Plus I don’t know if there’s any truth to 6 bit lenses being more optimized to the camera from a color and lens correction perspective.  Especially with wide lenses.

I’m also quite fascinated by the amount of fans for the Elmarit!  I’m intrigued by the praise for an f2.8 lens.  My only hesitation is that I need lenses with more light gathering especially with a camera like the M11-P with high resolution.  In testing Summicron lenses I’ve noticed there is a surprisingly nice marriage between the M11 and the cron when it comes to low light capture.   

This. Out of five CV lenses I purchased BRAND NEW three had issues. One was decentered (12mm), one did not focus properly (35/1.5) and one was assembled so it was not sharp at all wide open (21/4). I have decided I will only own Voightlander lenses if there was no Leica alternative to the focal length or size at a certain focal length. Kept the 12 for the angle and 21 for travel to pair with Summicron 40, all the rest (had several more altogether including the debated 28 Ultron II) are all gone.

Also, what you are referring to "focus shift" is probably front/back focus. Focus shift occurs when you stop down the lens from, say, f/1.5 to f/2-f/4 and it changes focus. You cannot buy different copies of the same lens to avoid focus shift.

[RexGig0]

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17 hours ago, petereprice said:

Hi all - I'm in the market for a 28mm lens for my Leica M11-P camera.  I currently have the Leica Q3 and have no plans to get rid of it, but it would be nice to have a 28mm option on my M body on several occasions, so I thought I'd pose this question for this knowledgeable group!

I'm currently looking at the following choices:

1.  Leica 28mm f2 Summicron-M v3 (2023 Close Focus)
2.  Voigtlander 28mm f1.5 Nokton Vintage Type I
3.  Voigtlander 28mm f2 Ultron Typle II

I know many have praised the 28mm Summilux as a good option, however it's out of my price range, and I also don't like the size of it, so please do not mention this one as I know it's awesome, but it's not in my choice list.  
The Summicron is one I'm currently testing as I just rented it.  So far I like it, but I can't help but look at the Voigtlander options which are significantly cheaper, especially since I would consider the 28mm my secondary option on my M considering I typically shoot 35 and I also have the Q3.  But I would love to get some opinions from folks on if the Summicron is still worth it, or if I should consider some of these cool Voigtlander options.  I know the Ultron is very well-praised and the new Nokton Vintage looks great with its f1.5.

I would love some advice, thoughts, etc.  Thanks team!

The Summicron would have the advantage of 6-bit coding, which would resolve, at the moment of capture, the vignetting exhibited by the Voigtlander lenses. Plus, I believe that the Summicron has a noticeable interruption in the movement of the focusing ring, when it passes the 0.7m distance mark. The individual shooter is the best judge of the importance of these two factors.

My personal 28mm M-mount lens choice was based upon a desire for the character of a Walter Mandler design, the Elmarit-M 28mm Version Three.

I should note that I am not opposed to Cosina Voigtlander lenses, or, for that matter, Cosina-made Zeiss lenses. I regularly use several of them. 

My apologies, for the font size. The latest iPad update seems to be keeping me from typing directly in the reply box, so, this is copied and pasted from a Notes page.

[Herr Barnack]

@petereprice If the Summicron-M 28mm f/2 ASPH (#11618, 2023 Version) is within reach, that would be the way to go.  Otherwise I would recommend the Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 ASPH #11677. 

The 28 Elmarit is the only 28mm M lens I have at the moment and it is an outstanding all around 28.  I have always dreamed of getting the 28 Summilux for its speed and shallow DOF but it has eluded me so far.  The 28 Elmarit does an outstanding job for me, though.  It really is hard to beat.

[petereprice]

Thanks everyone for your very helpful feedback.  I’ve decided to go with the 28 Summicron.  I’m able to fund a chunk of this by selling my 35mm Summicron which was recently replaced by my 35mm f1.4 Summilux FLE II.  My 35 cron has been sitting around since the FLE purchase so what better way to trade it in for the 28 cron (2023 Edition)

The reason for my decision ultimately was the following:

1.  It seems like a good in between of the Summilux and the Elmarit in size and weight.

2.  In my initial testing of a rental copy I felt like it produced the right amount of sharpness and character I needed to match up with my other Leica Close Focus lenses.

3.  I like the lens body design including the built in lens hood.

4.  By having the 35 FLE II, 50mm Lux ASPH II, and the 28mm f2 Cron v3, I have a full system of close focus lenses with the latest that Leica offers making it a proper lens set.  Which means they should match up well.  

5.  I have no issues with the CV lenses when it comes to quality and still planning on owning them, but the 28 Ultron didn’t really excite me when it came to the design of the lens.  That is totally subjective and has I not had the funds, I would most certainly have gone with the Ultron but with the trade in of my 35 cron it made more sense.

6.  I plan on someday using these primes with a future SL offering and I feel like these close focus primes like the 28 cron (2023 edition) will fit nicely on the SL bodies.

7.  And lastly mounting the 28mm cron on my M6 just felt good and I’m looking by forward to shooting film with the 28 focal range!

[Al Brown]

27 minutes ago, petereprice said:

I’ve decided to go with the 28 Summicron.

A good choice. The lens costs 4950 euros here in EU. I did know exactly which lens you will choose after reading about your inventory so the "match" is obvious.

[28framelines]

16 hours ago, petereprice said:

I’m also quite fascinated by the amount of fans for the Elmarit!  I’m intrigued by the praise for an f2.8 lens.  My only hesitation is that I need lenses with more light gathering especially with a camera like the M11-P with high resolution.  In testing Summicron lenses I’ve noticed there is a surprisingly nice marriage between the M11 and the cron when it comes to low light capture.   

As someone who uses the Elmarit ASPH as my 28mm option on a Leica MP (film), I don’t quite understand this argument given the M11P can outresolve film in low light any day, but I rarely find the f2.8 limiting (there’s flash if I _really_ need it). But that being said, congrats on going with the 28 Summicron V3! 😊

[don daniel]

I've had the SL28mm, the SC28mm and now have the Elmarit 28mm. It's a joy to use on the M11.

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[Lesslemming]

In summary, there are a lot of great 28mm options for your M.

Personally, I am another voter for the Elmarit 28mm. What I like about it is:

 

• Size, the smallest lens I own
• Absurdly sharp at relevant apertures (5.6 or 8 )
• Just fine wide open
• E39 is filter / budget friendly

 

Negatives are:

• 0.7m at 28mm is not very close
• maximum aperture at 2.8 is not very fast

 

I toyed with the new Summicron 28mm f/2 that focuses down to 0.4m, yesterday.
Nice lens, balances great, looks very slick. The slide-out hood felt a bit strange on that particular copy; I liked it a little better on the Summilux 50mm ASPH V1 and the APO Summicron 75mm. The close focus is much better but 0.4m at 28mm will also not get you that far. Better, but still not great. However, depending on what you want to do all of this is irrelevant.

[TomSchmitt]

Elmarit 28 (maybe used) is the way to go. IMHO better than the excellent Voigtlanders, and it holds the value much better once you wanna upgrade. New VL 28 1.5 looks promising, but noone got their hands on it yet. Recent VL are GREAT, but they lose 40% of their resale value the second you open the box.

[kiwidad]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:57 PM, Warton said:

I don’t know why those pictures could be award winning, same as I don’t understand a urinal in a museum being called contemporary art

 

LFI is a mystery to me. it seems content is far more important to a picture than focus or exposure. Explain to me again why I should spend $5000 on a Leica 28mm instead of a color Skopar for $400????

Edited January 17 by kiwidad

[kiwidad]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:45 PM, BruceRH said:

I guess it depends on your budget and how fast you want it to be. Since you already have the Q3, I would choose something smaller. I don't see the Voigtlander 28/2.8 Color-Skopar on your list. I find it every bit as sharp as my CV 28/2 Ultron II but smaller. I have the type I and pair it with the 40/2.8. Obviously the Elmarit is a great choice and also small, but for more money. It is hard to go wrong with any on your list

the 28/2.8 color Skopar an amazing lens for a small amount of money. I think "no character"  is the moniker for justifying a soft lens sometimes 🙂

 

[Warton]

1 hour ago, kiwidad said:

LFI is a mystery to me. it seems content is far more important to a picture than focus or exposure. Explain to me again why I should spend $5000 on a Leica 28mm instead of a color Skopar for $400????

Pretentious, Ostentatious.

These are the two words I can describe those LFI people the best.

Give them a McDonald's chicken nugget and tell them it's from 3-star Michelin restaurant, they would worship the chef.

Look at that guy's award winning pictures, the contents are dubious if there were any contents at all.

You film a guy from far distance walking away from you in the midnight at middle of nowhere, blur, out-of-focus, no contrast, black-and-white of course, and then give a suspicious title to the picture, such as "walking to dismay", I guarantee you to win an award from LFI.

Edited January 17 by Warton

[adan]

2 hours ago, kiwidad said:

LFI is a mystery to me. it seems content is far more important to a picture than focus or exposure.

It is. 😁

In the words of Ansel Adams: "I prefer a fuzzy picture of a sharp concept to a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept."

In the words of Henri Cartier-Bresson: "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."

Understanding that is exactly how one rises out of the "common clay" of photography, and into the topmost tier.

https://www.poy.org/69/34/second_01.php

[Warton]

56 minutes ago, adan said:

It is. 😁

In the words of Ansel Adams: "I prefer a fuzzy picture of a sharp concept to a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept."

In the words of Henri Cartier-Bresson: "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."

Understanding that is exactly how one rises out of the "common clay" of photography, and into the topmost tier.

https://www.poy.org/69/34/second_01.php

What exactly constitutes a sharp concept then? Ansel Adams is mainly a landscape photographer. It's hypocritical for him to prefer a fuzz picture.

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Hallo,

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[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Understanding that is exactly how one rises out of the "common clay" of photography, and into the topmost tier.

 

You mean it’s not via a rocket propelled by GAS?

Jeff