Help a beginner on his journey to finding the right lenses

[IkarusJohn]

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Interesting question, and sensible to avoid asking which lens; instead asking how to approach the decision.

The M system shines between 21mm and 90mm.  I would start by considering focal lengths. For me, 90mm was too long for the M system.  Though I use a magnifier on my Monochrom and EVF on my M10-D, I find the field of view too tight with a 90mm.  I think 50mm is the sweet spot for the M system, but it is also too tight for many situations.  For portraits, I find 75mm is perfect.  50mm and 75mm have shallower depths of field, so the quality of boken and roll-off from in focus to out of focus is important.

For wider images, it really depends on what you’re looking for. A “standard” or “neutral” field of view with full frame is 43mm, so 50mm and 35mm can both appear a bit boring.  They work well together, but that neutrality means you need to work a bit harder with perspective and subject placement if you wish to achieve drama.

28mm and 21mm can provide that drama, but then each provides its challenges. 28mm can be a bit predictable, as it is the most common cellphone field of view.  Personally, I like the slightly wider field of view over 35mm (which requires more work).  21mm is fantastic, but you need to take care with horizontals, if they feature in your images; and you need to take more care with composition (keeping your subject clearly in frame).

So, I would start with looking at the impact of focal length on the images you like to take.  I like the 28-50 combination, or 35-75. Then, rather than lusting after dufferent or more focal lengths, work on getting the most out of what you have.

In terms of the multitude of choices, I would think of Leica lenses rather than confusing the choices further, but price is an issue, I guess.

As you will know, I’m sure, the Leica choices alone are huge.  The “best” of the Mandler era lenses have the trick of being a bit soft wide open (prone to flare) and sharp stopped down, whereas Karbe era lenses seem to aim for sharpness at all apertures (Peter Karbe famously said select your aperture for depth of field).  So, I would consider whether I wanted two lenses of similar character (eg, APO’s or something with more aberration, like the older spherical lenses or the more moder ASPH’s) or do you want something different in your wide lens?

Speed is really a price issue.  Faster lenses tend to be bigger and more expensive, but provide more options.  You don’t have to always use fast lenses wide open - that is a very limiting approach to photography.  In the same way that placing your subject out of the centre of the frame (a common issue with the M system), aperture should ensure the entire subject is in the plane of best focus.  If your subject is an eyelash, that’s fine, but I prefer portraits to have the nose, eyes and ears in focus!

Were it me, I’d try to match the two lenses, at least for a start.

My priority is almost entirely image quality, rather than size, weight, pocketability or viewfinder blockage. I use my Noctilux 0.95 and 21 Summilux a lot, and these issues never cross my mind.  Your mileage will almost certainly vary. But, if the lens stays on the shelf, you need to ask yourself why.

One last comment, once you’ve made your choices, get out and take images, and try to make the most of what you have, rather than thinking about what you wish you had. There are very few bad choices. 

Good luck, and enjoy your new adventure. 
 

[weatherproof]

4 hours ago, M8X2 said:

On the 35 vs. 28 debate: I am not bound to 28 but I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50. I could see myself with a 35 at the beginning. I've seen a very long and interesting video on the 35 Steel Rim from Patrick Colpron on YouTube that was fascinating.

On used-lenses: I am a big fan of buying used stuff but I didn't look into this yet. I need to figure out where to find them in Germany first. I'm guessing most likely here, on eBay, and at the local Leica store. 

 

The good thing about buying a used M-mount lens is that you can generally sell it for roughly same price you bought it. So consider any "losses" an extended rental fee.

In my short experience in Germany, a lot of smaller shops list their inventory on ebay.de. The Leica Classic Shop also seems to have a decent selection with not outrageous prices (unlike Leica Frankfurt): https://classic.leica-camera.com/at/de/lcc/Leica/M-System/Objektive/

And if we may drift a bit.. if you need to budget for this, an M10R is still a great body that would leave you more money for lenses.

Edited January 3 by weatherproof

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[BEG]

For what it's worth, I recommend you get two of Leica's newest M lenses: the 50mm Summilux ASPH v.2 and the 28mm Summicron ASPH v.3. Both are relatively compact, have retractable hoods, offer close focus (to 0.45m and 0.4m respectively), take E46 filters, and--if you want to spruce them up a bit--are sized to fit the metal lens cap that comes with the Noctilux f/1.2 (available separately). They would make a wonderful set--especially for travel. I also love the 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE v.2 for the same reasons if you decide to go with a 35mm lens.

Whatever you choose, have fun!

[M11 for me]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb BEG:

the 50mm Summilux ASPH v.2

And I wonder if you would not come back to your Summilux decision a few months later: Why the hell did I buy the Lux . . . . The Crons are so much lighter and nicer to carry around. 

Yes, I know the background blur. But in reality f/2 is perfect as well and most time you will use 5.6 or 8 anyway. That is my pragmatic view.

[sometimesmaybe]

5 hours ago, dpitt said:

The M11 with a lens fitted in your pocket will make a perfect all day companion. F2.8 is not too slow with the high ISO performance of the M11. At 28mm it is very hard to get shallow DOF anyway, so then I would go all out for the 'perfect' lens and in the most tiny package possible.

@M8X2 i must respectfully agree with the above observations.

M bodies have the basic ergonomic styling of a brick... having a compact 28mm to go with your 50 lux seem like some excellent advice.

given the sensor in the m11 and all the AI de-noising algorithms in LR and DxO, f2 and f2.8 lenses are more than good enough. as a bonus the deeper DOF will make focusing much easier for non-M shooters   

[ianforber]

5 hours ago, M8X2 said:

Thanks so much for your valuable input so far! May it also help others who want to get into the M universe.

To address some of the recommendations and questions here:

My kid turns 12 soon. When I sold my M8, we had iPhone 3s, a blodgy mess compared to the latest generations. My wife only 'shoots' iPhone these days and that's good enough. 

Why switch from Q2? I only shoot for pleasure and I find that I use the Q2 in manual mode most of the times. The Q2 is excellent, no question, but after having had it for about two years, I crave more versatility and I am willing to trade the convenience of the AF and IS for that. And quite honestly, the M is the most satisfying camera for me to use.

On the 35 vs. 28 debate: I am not bound to 28 but I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50. I could see myself with a 35 at the beginning. I've seen a very long and interesting video on the 35 Steel Rim from Patrick Colpron on YouTube that was fascinating.

On used-lenses: I am a big fan of buying used stuff but I didn't look into this yet. I need to figure out where to find them in Germany first. I'm guessing most likely here, on eBay, and at the local Leica store. 

I was in your exact position 2 years ago. I decided I couldn’t let my Q2 go but I wanted something with a smaller lens. I chose a new 50mm Summicron because it was sufficiently different from the Q2’s 28mm and it was smaller than the Summilux. I also wanted a Leica lens to get the full Leica experience!  I forced myself to use only that lens for 12 months so I could really get to know it. 

After 12 months I decided to get a 35mm to see if I liked that focal length. As it was a bit of a trial, I decided to get a Voigtlander 35mm f1.5 Nokton, not least because it was almost identical in size to the Leica 35mm Summicron and because it was so much cheaper. It’s stayed on my M11 for most of the past year and I can’t see any advantage in buying the Leica version. 

I still use the Q2 but I’m toying with getting a 28mm for the M11, both to see whether I would be happy to sell the Q2 and to make for a smaller overall package. I would probably get the Voigtlander 28mm f2.8. 

I’ve no regrets in taking my lens acquisition slowly, and no regrets in going for a 50mm first. 
 

[newtoleica]

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Lens rendering is so personal. I’ve tried and used a lot of them over the years and the two lenses that have me shooting the M system above anything else by any manufacturer are the Summilux 24 and the Summilux 35 ASPH pre-FLE. To me those are the perfect lens, both in FL and in the way they render an image. They are the only two Leica lenses I own though I may add  Summicron APO 75 (again). 

[pippy]

7 hours ago, M8X2 said:

...I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50...

 

3 hours ago, pgk said:

It really isn't!

I couldn't agree more.

Without wishing to labour the point here is one pair of snaps on this very subject (post #51) posted just a few weeks ago regarding the 35 / 50 'being too close' issue. Hopefully it might be of interest;

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/378023-one-version-of-each-focal-length/page/3/#comment-4929813

Philip.

Edited January 3 by pippy

[earleygallery]

Ideal general use pair IMHO is a 35 and 90.

[pgk]

9 hours ago, earleygallery said:

Ideal general use pair IMHO is a 35 and 90.

IMO its 35 and 75 because the 75 is a tad easier to focus😃.

[Viv]

21 hours ago, M8X2 said:

Hi All,

The time has come to move on and get my dream camera, a modern digital M. I always admired Leica M's since I was a young student and had the pleasure of holding an M6 in my hands in a photo shop in Hamburg. I bought an M8 with a 35 mm 1.4 Classic Voigtlander about 14 years ago, but I sold it when my kid was born and I had issues getting any pleasing images of the baby. I needed something more capable in low light, and quick and easy to focus so that my wife could use the camera as well. I went on a journey of different cameras, none of which really excited me: Nikon DSLR, Fuji X100V, Canon compact, Sony RX100, ... The journey lead me to a Q2 which I enjoyed for two years now. Then I tried an M11 recently, went out to shoot with it, so here I am. I will trade in my Q2 and buy an M11 or M11P and two lenses.

Figuring out which lenses to get for my first kit is tough. I spent the last week or so just trying to get my arms around all the different options and their characteristics. I will shoot mainly family, travel, cities, landscape, and some cautious street. I think I will start with a 50 and a 28, extending the kit later potentially with a 'character' 75 for portraits and maybe a fun 35 like the Steel Rim. The 50 will likely be a new or relatively new Lux because I dreamt of owning a Lux for more than half of my life. The 28 worries me a bit. I am spoiled by the quality of the Q2, so I am not sure if I should strive for perfection or character. To be honest, I am not even sure if I am currently capable of recognising the subtle differences between the not-so extreme options at the moment, so I am likely overthinking things.

Instead of asking for specific advice on the particular lenses, what are your recommendations regarding finding the right lenses if you put yourself in the mind of a newbie? I understand from my other hobbies that much will come through trial&error and evolution but obviously I would like to start with a good and versatile kit and go from there. Thanks in advance for your input!

Don't fixate on Leica lenses. Zeiss and Voigtlander make excellent M-fit lenses.

[Bikie John]

My suggestion is that even before thinking about which specific lens or lenses you want, think first about focal length. Fortunately you have experience with the Q system - so what do you tend to do with those images? Leave them at their native 28(ish)mm? Crop them to some extent, whether using the camera settings for 35/50 etc., or manually in post? Do you have any favourite pics or styles that you have take with the Q, and how did you arrive at them?

This should help you understand how you "see". Then look for a lens that best matches that view, and don't worry too much which one. If you are lucky enough to have a helpful local dealer, you should be able to try something and then go back and discuss future needs with them.

I would also suggest that - maybe unless you go for a 28mm - you keep the Q for a while if possible. So for example if you get a 35 or 50 for the M but get frustrated from time to time because you feel the need for something wider, you have the Q as a fall-back. That may also tell you that you need to get a 28mm for the M next.

Good luck - it is, as others have said, a journey. And it has no finish line!

John

[Al Brown]

Get ONE LENS to begin with - the 35mm. You should be able to cover 95% of everything with it. Thank me later.

[M8X2]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

Get ONE LENS to begin with - the 35mm. You should be able to cover 95% of everything with it. Thank me later.

Which one would you suggest? The latest Lux?

John, with the Q2, it really depends. In landscape, I often didn't crop but in street, I regularly did. When I had the Fuji, I wasn't missing anything because of the 35, so I would be fine with that focal length as well.

[weatherproof]

Personally I think the 35mm Summicron ASPH v1 (11879 / 11882) balances size, image quality, and market price fairly well.

[Al Brown]

24 minutes ago, M8X2 said:

Which one would you suggest? The latest Lux?

John, with the Q2, it really depends. In landscape, I often didn't crop but in street, I regularly did. When I had the Fuji, I wasn't missing anything because of the 35, so I would be fine with that focal length as well.

35 FLE (the latest lux) / Summicron ASPH II if you like modern rendering
35 Steel Rim re-issue / 35 Summicron IV if you like moderate character
35 lux pre-asph if you like strong character

[hansvons]

21 hours ago, M8X2 said:

On the 35 vs. 28 debate: I am not bound to 28 but I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50.

 

17 hours ago, pgk said:

It really isn't!

This.

28mm, 35mm and 50mm lenses are very different in stretching the perspective towards the edges. However, when you digitally zoom in, they deliver the same image in the centre; think of a zoom lens (that's why a 1.5x cropped image of a 35mm lens looks like a 50mm image). The 28mm is highly expressive and looks quite different from how we humans perceive the world. You can see clearly that the world was deliberately shot through a lens (similar to a telephoto). Most people are accustomed to that effect without noticing because trillions of ubiquitous phone pictures look exactly like that.

The 35mm and the 50mm are different in that regard, as they both represent essential aspects of the human vision. The 35mm provides roughly the angle of view of human sight, but things look more distant. The 50mm matches the proportions of human sight but is a tad too narrow to capture the full picture of what we see. 

That's why there are photographers who are 35mm guys and others who prefer 50mm. Practically, as a beginner, you can't go wrong with either focal length. However, as written above, the 35mm is more versatile and less prone to focus issues with a range finder. 

The 28mm is a speciality lens, in my opinion, but it definitely has its use cases (think of expressive-looking landscapes or cityscapes. In cinematography that would be panorama longshots). But that's not what a beginner typically needs when starting their photographic journey.

[hansvons]

54 minutes ago, weatherproof said:

Personally I think the 35mm Summicron ASPH v1 (11879 / 11882) balances size, image quality, and market price fairly well.

That is precisely my recommendation. Older designs with highlight halation and tons of other quirks have their place but would be a distraction for the beginner. 

[hansvons]

50 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

35 FLE (the latest lux) / Summicron ASPH II if you like modern rendering
35 Steel Rim re-issue / 35 Summicron IV if you like moderate character
35 lux pre-asph if you like strong character

Agreed. However, the term character might be misleading for a beginner because it can easily be confused with great images, which often is not the case, or at least a matter of taste. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

2 minutes ago, hansvons said:

The 28mm is highly expressive and looks quite different from how we humans perceive the world.

I would say that a 1mm shift of focal length from 35mm moving wider (shorter focal length) has far more impact visually than a 1mm shift in focal length from 50mm going narrower (longer focal length). Probably because whilst we do see a very wide angle of view with our eyes, we do not see anything at the periphery in detail whilst wecan concentrate on fine detail in the central area of our vision. Or to put it another was, as hansvons suggests, we are less used to a highly detailed wide-angle image.