Help a beginner on his journey to finding the right lenses

[M8X2]

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Hi All,

The time has come to move on and get my dream camera, a modern digital M. I always admired Leica M's since I was a young student and had the pleasure of holding an M6 in my hands in a photo shop in Hamburg. I bought an M8 with a 35 mm 1.4 Classic Voigtlander about 14 years ago, but I sold it when my kid was born and I had issues getting any pleasing images of the baby. I needed something more capable in low light, and quick and easy to focus so that my wife could use the camera as well. I went on a journey of different cameras, none of which really excited me: Nikon DSLR, Fuji X100V, Canon compact, Sony RX100, ... The journey lead me to a Q2 which I enjoyed for two years now. Then I tried an M11 recently, went out to shoot with it, so here I am. I will trade in my Q2 and buy an M11 or M11P and two lenses.

Figuring out which lenses to get for my first kit is tough. I spent the last week or so just trying to get my arms around all the different options and their characteristics. I will shoot mainly family, travel, cities, landscape, and some cautious street. I think I will start with a 50 and a 28, extending the kit later potentially with a 'character' 75 for portraits and maybe a fun 35 like the Steel Rim. The 50 will likely be a new or relatively new Lux because I dreamt of owning a Lux for more than half of my life. The 28 worries me a bit. I am spoiled by the quality of the Q2, so I am not sure if I should strive for perfection or character. To be honest, I am not even sure if I am currently capable of recognising the subtle differences between the not-so extreme options at the moment, so I am likely overthinking things.

Instead of asking for specific advice on the particular lenses, what are your recommendations regarding finding the right lenses if you put yourself in the mind of a newbie? I understand from my other hobbies that much will come through trial&error and evolution but obviously I would like to start with a good and versatile kit and go from there. Thanks in advance for your input!

[spydrxx]

Well, you already figured out the 50. You have a lot of choices in the 28, especially if you extend your vision beyond just the Leica brand. I'd suggest you browse the postings on the 28 focal length to get an idea of what's out there and how Leica users feel about the different choices. I'm assuming budget isn't the controlling factor here, and given your wide range of subjects mentioned in your post, you might want a relatively fast lens rather than some of the recent offerings which although compact have a limited range of apertures, perhaps not really suitable in low light without a tripod or bean bag.

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[Almizilero]

Hi there, as someone relatively new to the M (M10 in my case) I can't give you perfect advice, but I can tell you about my journey so far. I come frome the Q as well, wanted to add something longer than 28mm. 50mm seemed the right choice and still is. The M is my everyday carry, usually the 50mm is (was?) glued to the camera. Only for travel I would add the 28 to my bag. That worked out all right.

But since I don't travel alone, the changing of lenses felt a little cumbersome. You always see something that asks for the other lens. More often then not, the moment was gone before I could change the lens. So I did the unthinkable and got a "zoom" for my M! So during the next trip, I tested if the TriElmar MATE would fit my needs. Fast access to 28, 35 and 50 seemed like a great thing and F/4 was just about enough for travel pictures. I can only say, this lens is an absolute gem and gave me everything I wished for. And then some! My perfect travel companion. Sold the 28 and kept the 50 and TriElmar as a 28mm stand in.

But at some point, I decided to look at my EXIF data to figure out which focal length I used the most with the TriElmar. I expected that I had switched mostly between 28 and 50. But it turned out that I took more pictures at 35 than at 50 and 28 combined! That was some surprise! So it seems like I really like the 35mm focal length. So now I'm in the process of finding a 35 that I like (and can/want to) afford. Still don't feel the need for a 28 (besides the TriElmar). I'll try the 35 as my "other" everyday lens and see if that works out. The 50 on the other hand won't go anywhere.

So long story short, A zoom lens is a great way to figure out your preferred focal. It's just not that easy to find a "zoom" for the M. That said, I think the 28/50 combo is perfectly fine as a starter kit. If you find out that you always have to crop your 28mm shots a little bit, you might want to get a 35 instead.

If you're interested I can add the lenses I tried to the story, but since you said you're not looking for specific lenses I left that out for now.

[a.noctilux]

Hello,

as you wrote, it's a journey.

I hope you have a pleasing journey.

I don't have or will use M11 but as long time Leica user I'll give you some idea.

For first thing first, in your place I'd just take with the M11 one lens, let's say Summilux-M 50mm *.

This is to begin somewhere and later on another lens then another why not.

Romantic thinking of "right kit from start" would halt your enthusiasm, so many "problems" to learn/solve at same time.

 

* this is a tough choice already, asph. two models, pre-asph...three (maybe more) models

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb M8X2:

I think I will start with a 50 and a 28

This is an excellent idea 👍. Maybe you should even start only with 28mm. That is what I would do if I could start again. 

[pgk]

Any modern Leica M lens from Leica or a reputable maker will produce grest results. Personally, if I was starting from scratch, I would probably look at the recently discontinued Summarit range and the current 28/2.8s and go from there. If you are not in a hurry and buy clean lenses for good prices you are unlikely to lose much if anything on them, and may 'upgrade' if and when you determine which lenses you would like in future. An M body with 28/2.8 35/2.4-5 and 75/2.4-5 will cover an awful lot with very little to complain about. If the apertures prove limiting then these wll trade in at good prices too.

[Nachtmsk]

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Hi,

Why give up the Q2 for an M11 ? It sounds like it is a good fit for everything you are doing and want to do.  It's great in low light, easy enough for anyone to use and covers all of your needs.  If you want the "feel" of shooting with an M, that's another thing and I do understand it. But it's not for everyone and you mentioned you wanted something for your wife to be able to use.  Based on what you said, I'd say stick with the Q2 or if you really want something new, get a Q3.

As far as lenses for an M go, I would say the 35/2 or if you have the funds, a 35/1.4. My two most uses lenses on my m10 are the 35/2 cron and the Voigtlander 40mm 1.2.   I rarely use my 75; for me an M just isn't the right camera to use anything longer then a 50.  Don't discount Voigtlander lenses and the character of a lens. I personally don't want the most optically perfect lens, of which Leica makes several; they are boring to me in.

Also I'd never suggest a zoom lens for anyone who really wants to immerse themselves in their shooting. A zoom offers too many options and it clouds creativity IMHO.

Have fun!

Mike

[pippy]

I'll leave the 50 question aside if you are set on acquiring the Summilux (and it is a fine choice).

For a 28 you might first consider how important physical size will be for your needs. The Summilux is fast (obviously) but very large and heavy in comparison with the alternatives. It also blocks a large area of the viewfinder which might be of note.

A 28mm Summicron is always a good bet and a fine balance between speed and size. As a slightly smaller - but 1 stop slower - option the Elmarit f2.8 ASPH (two versions made) has great performance in a tiny package. FWIW the earlier version has the least finder-blockage and is slightly shorter than the v2 when a hood is fitted to both.

Good luck.

Philip.

Edited January 3 by pippy

[espelt]

You should also decide based on how you prefer to experience the viewfinder. 28 and 35 mm the complete viewfinder is the image. At 50mm there is the area that is no longer in the photo. And which I, for example, like much. Because it is often interesting to also keep an eye on the subject's immediate surroundings. One reason why I traveled almost exclusively with the 50 on the M for many years.
Anyway, I would recommend a 35 or 50 to start with. You can't go wrong with a Summicron. But a Summarit is definitely worth considering. In any case, I would go for a good all-rounder to start with.
I still have my first Summicron 50 and still enjoy using it on the digital M today.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, M8X2 said:

Instead of asking for specific advice on the particular lenses, what are your recommendations regarding finding the right lenses if you put yourself in the mind of a newbie?

Thinking about this I would say that the first thing to consider is why you are getting an M. If it is for the small size of lenses then look at them as a whole in terms of weight and size, consider filter size perhaps (standardisation) and think about all up weight. If its because of Leica's superlative, and still reasonably small, fast lenses then determine how much all up weight and size you want to carry. Think about focus and decide what you are comfortable with as your longest lens. And you will at some point need to decide if you are happy using an externl finder if you want wide lenses. As I said in my last post, I would buy the lenses which are lower cost and work up to the more costly ones as this will be a cheaper way of finding out which focal lngths you like most on the M.

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, M8X2 said:

Instead of asking for specific advice on the particular lenses, what are your recommendations regarding finding the right lenses if you put yourself in the mind of a newbie?

Most advanced photographers recommend a 35mm focal length to beginners to start their photographic journey because it's the most versatile focal length. And Leica is particularly good at making the finest 35mm glass in the industry. Plus it works very well with Leica's RF mechanism.

35mm is the storyteller's focal length par excellence. You can cover a story unfolding in front of your eyes, from introducing long shots to close-ups and anything in between, without changing lenses. You only have to move your feet and won't lose time swapping lenses, which is essential for non-staged photography.  At first, 35mm might look boring, but it's not. On the contrary, lensing a story with the 35mm requires imagination and a creative perspective because it's neither loud like the 28mm nor inward-looking like the 50mm. In cinematography, it's the most widely used lens. 

I'd go for a V4 Summicron or its successor, the ASPH version. Both are as much Leica as it possibly can get. And then, of course, are the Summiluxes. 

That said, a 50mm is always nice to have when you are shooting portraits or tightly framed action. However, it requires more skills to coax compelling compositions from it, and critical focus is harder to achieve. Photography is not about bokeh balls and blurry backgrounds but images that carry something unforgettable with them, at least for me. YMMV, of course. 

28mm is also a focal length with substantial usefulness. There's a reason why it's today's standard lens for phones. Compositions with the 28mm tend to look expressive, especially when people are shot closely. And that's the danger. You will fall into the trap of letting the focal length make the creative work for you. Similar things can be said about telephoto lenses. Everything looks dreamy and arty. 

Hence the 35mm.

 

[newtoleica]

First off I would echo the wisdom of selling your Q2. The M and the Q are complementary to each other. Whilst the Q could potentially do most of what an M does, the M cannot replace the Q. Unless you zone focus you can't get sharp images quickly on the M, so wide open shots with nice bokeh of fast moving children or fleeting expressions on family trips are not impossible, but tough. Also dust and water resistance is useful on the Q for hiking/beach or being out in the wet. So you may find using the M as an only camera frustrating at times and that may just spoil the whole thing for you..... why not keep the Q2 and get an M10-P/R? It's a very useable camera with a few around now at good prices. Are you sure you really need the premium price of the new M11?

As for lenses. 50 or 35 depending on your preference and don't be afraid to buy used. M lenses last forever... Spend a lot of time looking at the rendering in posted examples on the forum and don't feel you have to get 'the latest and greatest'.

Personally I use the M on account of the character of the M lenses and the whole experience of shooting a rangefinder on the street. There's a whole load of techniques for doing that which don't really apply to family shots (LOL). However, I've also always had an AF fixed lens camera as well.

[dpitt]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

...

A 28mm Summicron is always a good bet and a fine balance between speed and size. As a slightly smaller - but 1 stop slower - option the Elmarit f2.8 ASPH (two versions made) has great performance in a tiny package. FWIW the earlier version has the least finder-blockage and is slightly shorter than the v2 when a hood is fitted to both.

You will have plenty of DOF play and character with the Summilux 50mm.

I think buying a TINY 28 or 35 mm will bring a new dimension that you may not have experienced yet. The M11 with a lens fitted in your pocket will make a perfect all day companion. F2.8 is not too slow with the high ISO performance of the M11. At 28mm it is very hard to get shallow DOF anyway, so then I would go all out for the 'perfect' lens and in the most tiny package possible.

My preference is a 35mm Summicron or Summilux. It will get the job done, and in rare occasions where you do can not take a further step back, stitching will probably do the trick. 35mm F1.4 (or F2.0) can make a difference in DOF much more than with a 28mm, so that adds an other dimension for me, together with some tiny options.

[M8X2]

Thanks so much for your valuable input so far! May it also help others who want to get into the M universe.

To address some of the recommendations and questions here:

My kid turns 12 soon. When I sold my M8, we had iPhone 3s, a blodgy mess compared to the latest generations. My wife only 'shoots' iPhone these days and that's good enough. 

Why switch from Q2? I only shoot for pleasure and I find that I use the Q2 in manual mode most of the times. The Q2 is excellent, no question, but after having had it for about two years, I crave more versatility and I am willing to trade the convenience of the AF and IS for that. And quite honestly, the M is the most satisfying camera for me to use.

On the 35 vs. 28 debate: I am not bound to 28 but I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50. I could see myself with a 35 at the beginning. I've seen a very long and interesting video on the 35 Steel Rim from Patrick Colpron on YouTube that was fascinating.

On used-lenses: I am a big fan of buying used stuff but I didn't look into this yet. I need to figure out where to find them in Germany first. I'm guessing most likely here, on eBay, and at the local Leica store. 

[JPP1]

6 minutes ago, M8X2 said:

On used-lenses: I am a big fan of buying used stuff but I didn't look into this yet. I need to figure out where to find them in Germany first. I'm guessing most likely here, on eBay, and at the local Leica store. 

You may try this: https://classic.leica-camera.com/

 

 

[JoshuaRothman]

First of all, congratulations in advance on what will be a great camera. The M system is marvelous for the kind of photography you’re doing.

On 28mm lenses, you might find this recent thread of mine helpful. It discusses a number of 28mm lenses and ends up with some samples of the 28mm Summicron ASPH. 

More generally, my number one piece of advice is to go to a store and handle the lenses in person before you buy them. When I built up my lens kit, I spent a lot of time looking at images online, and focusing on image characteristics. I’d then decide on a lens, buy it used, and only then get a sense of what it was like to use in real life. I think I made some unnecessary mistakes because of this. If I’d tried the 50 Cron and 50 Lux side by side in a store, I would’ve discovered that the 50 Lux was small and light enough for me. Online reading had led me to believe that it was much bigger and heavier than it really was, and so I started with a Summicron, which I later had to trade for a Lux. Similarly, I wish I’d tried a 28 Cron. I assumed that I’d prefer a very small 28, and started out with the 28 Elmarit ASPH. But in the end, the 28 Cron turned out to be small and light enough for me. I’m not saying that the 28 Cron and 50 Lux are the right lenses for you—only that it’s truly useful to get a sense of the handling in person.

My other piece of advice is to consider renting lenses. I did that with the 35 Steel Rim and found the experience very helpful. My core everyday kit now is a 28 Cron v1, 35 Steel Rim, and 50 Lux ASPH, and I find that these lenses give me all the latitude I really need to make great pictures.

 

[a.noctilux]

Now that I think to it (as M beginner)  more.

I see two paths and more of course.

Firstly if you buy M11, begin with reasonable 50mm or 35mm (or 28mm why not)to feel/try if Leica M is for you, only one lens,

then from there only sky is the limit for choices of other lenses.

...

Second path, like @JoshuaRothman wrote above, renting can be the most sensible path, rent and take time to use, as long as you can, and what you want ( lenses and M ).

 

[espelt]

I don't know where you live in Germany. But with old lenses, if you don't know much about them, I would visit the nearest store. There you can pick up the lens and try it on the camera. Even if it is a little more expensive. You can definitely find good examples on eBay. But some old sweethearts aren't really sweethearts. Just well photographed.
As you may have already seen, there are also meetings or regular get-togethers in many regions. You can't just exchange ideas there. In addition to a good beer, there is usually a lot of lenses and cameras on the table. If you live near Stuttgart - next week will be your first opportunity. You are cordially invited.

[M8X2]

I know about the difficulties of finding decent vintage material from the watch space. I just hope that there is less faking and more honesty in the Leica community.

Oliver, thanks! I live in driving distance of the mothership and any store in the Rhein-Main region. 

Some of your comments just opened up another potential path: M11 + Steel Rim. 35 mm, lots of character wide open and sharp and contrasty stopped down.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

3 hours ago, M8X2 said:

..... I thought that 35 is a bit too close to 50 .....

It really isn't!