M-A negative borders not straight

[Pyrogallol]

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I use Ilford Multigrade darkroom paper in A4 size which suits 24x36 perfectly. Have been using it for decades, just bought another 400 sheets. I do use Ilford best art paper in 11x14 which is a bit cheaper than 12x16 and fits my dishes nicely as well as being the biggest size I can pick up with a single print tong.

Edited January 3, 2024 by Pyrogallol

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[skahde]

Am 3.1.2024 um 19:27 schrieb Pyrogallol:

I use Ilford Multigrade darkroom paper in A4 size which suits 24x36 perfectly. 

Close enough! DIN-formats are 1 X sqrt 2 in every size which is just a small bit stubbier than the negatives 2 X 3 and much better than say 8x10". 

[Pyrogallol]

5 hours ago, skahde said:

Close enough! DIN-formats are 1 X sqrt 2 in every size which is just a small bit stubbier than the negatives 2 X 3 and much better than say 8x10". 

This is what an A4 print looks like the way I print it. Printing the whole negative with the margins.

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Edited January 6, 2024 by Pyrogallol

[jakontil]

On 1/2/2024 at 9:36 PM, f8low said:

Thanks @burchyk for opening this thread - this issue has been on my mind for a while but I had never compiled an actual comparison. This is my chance to do so. 

Attached scans from a Leica M2, a Leica M-A and a Nikon F2. The negatives come from the same roll and - for once - have been DSLR scanned between two thick sheets of AN glass. The pictures were taken at 50mm, f8 and infinity focus.

Please excuse motive, change of light, dust and the very unfortunate piece of a roof on the M2 shot. This is of course not from the camera 🤦‍♂️ Also the M2 is known to need a bit of cleaning around the stage. Finally, my grid overlay might not be 100% spot on.

Observations: I think the difference in 'straightness' becomes pretty clear. I'd argue that for the M-A we're not just talking the extreme corners but also the upper/lower, say, 20% of the shorter side. 

So much about the facts for this sample of an M-A and an M2. Whether those borders are important and how straight they should be is highly subjective I guess. But I'd argue there are decisions to be made in the engineering of a camera as to how the borders will be. So one can go either this or that road. Nikon apparently liked the corners round 😁

Personally, when looking at a framed picture I quite like the look of a thin black line under a bright passepartout. So when I print I try to include them, be it with an enlarger or a digital printer. Frankly, before I got my M-A I was never concerned how those 'real' borders look precisely. Yet when I look at the M-A scans... I am a bit disappointed and occasionally get a slight sense of looking through an old bent window... for me personally, there's a bit of a sloppiness conveyed which I don't like.

Again, assigning value to these 'real' borders is subjective and should not be argued about. But if I had to argue with Leica about the look of the borders, I'd say they are an inherently analogue artefact and that a brand leveraging its analog history so much (and rightfully so!) could put a bit more care into capturing them 🙂  That being said, the M-A is an excellent camera otherwise....

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Yep inline with what i experienced with my M2 like i almost sandblast the whole frame to make it even

my late MP has a perfect rectangle or squerish form, not with my M6 TTL, just different may be more like the OP’s 

[Vlad Soare]

I took a look at my negatives today. While the edges aren't quite as messy as the OP's, they clearly aren't perfect. The short edge is a bit curved.

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And you know what? I love it! 😁

I've also looked at some older negatives, made with my Bessa R3M. They're absolutely perfect. Straight as a die. But I still prefer the Leica. 🥰

Edited January 9, 2024 by Vlad Soare

[aesop]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:58 PM, RobW0 said:

Many enlarger manufacturers sold 37x25mm negative carriers for printing black boarders. 

 

      ...I've got both 24x36mm and 25x37mm negative carriers for use with my Leitz V35 Focomat enlarger, and I know which one engages me more. Anyone who has messed with 25x37mm will know it is an entirely different discipline - imagine your darkroom process beginning just before you release the camera's shutter. Imagine. You simply have to "think different". Definitely not for everyone.

[a.noctilux]

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On 11/4/2024 at 8:56 AM, aesop said:

You simply have to "think different". Definitely not for everyone.

Think is something lost for a while (for some users of course).

Some would complain the non-precision of Leica M framing.

Here we  think of the whole process.

[Danner]

I like the irregular frame edges, print to the edge, it looks organic and filmic to my eye.

[thisisyourlife]

Borders on the film gate on my Leica M-A are also irregular. 

 

 

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[pgh]

I love the little quirks in the borders. My old m6 had a slight almost semicircle looking feature in the top right corner. Almost as if a hole puncher just skimmed the corner ever so slightly. Scanning old negs as I am this summer it’s the easiest way for me to tell (before inversion) if I shot it w my m6 or my contax g2. 

Edited July 22 by pgh

[f8low]

There are quirks and there are patterns. I'd be curious if anyone has an M-A where the small sides of the frame do not bend like those ones. I see this cushion on all the M-As here and on none of the older Ms. 

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Could it even be related to how plain the film is?

[lincoln_m]

I find this quite alarming! The curve of the short edge on these M-A negs would mean I'd have to crop in by a few mm thus losing perhaps 10-15% of the area.

But I can probably see why Leica doesn't mill or die cut the film gate because that might lead to metal burrs that could scratch the film or even worse they scratch the shutter curtains.

Re analogue borders: I've just had a brilliant idea for Leica digital Ms! They could add a random wobbly black border (50-100 pixels) to the DNG file. Each camera would have a uniquely different wobbly black border to reproduce the hand filed film gates of the film M's. Maybe it's part of the Content Credentials to add border based on the serial number?

You'd have to crop in post to get a clean 3:2 frame just as you do with slide or print films. Ah! better still make it only available in the M11-D and future M*-D pretend analogue cameras.

Mind you these frame borders could be worse, they could be like the cardboard slide mounts of the last days of Kodachrome in 2007 with ~2mm radius corners and hairy edges!

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Sunny day on Wast Water, Cumbria, March 2007. Leica Minilux, Kodachrome 200

Lincoln

[Vlad Soare]

2 hours ago, lincoln_m said:

I find this quite alarming! The curve of the short edge on these M-A negs would mean I'd have to crop in by a few mm thus losing perhaps 10-15% of the area.

Nah, it's not that much. More like a few tenths of a millimeter, if that.

[PCPix]

The camera’s film gate together with the enlarger mask could be considered as the photographer’s unique ‘fingerprint’ and I’d say should be embraced. 

If it’s something that really worries you, get the camera and enlarger precision milled - probably a costly and time consuming exercise. But then you’d end up with perfectly square, even and boring borders…

[thisisyourlife]

I rescanned some photos with the full borders. Initially, I thought the film was not perfectly flat. Curious how the film gate is manufactured. 

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[01af]

I had the same problem with my M-A ten years ago. Complained, got a replacement, heppi now.

I am surprised to learn the issue still persists.

[burchyk]

OP here.

Same M-A framelines stuck in 35mm just a few weeks before the 2y warranty was about to run out. I've brought it to the dealer today and added the crooked film gate as an additional issue. Will report on how this goes.

[skahde]

I can report that my 30x40 cm Leitz-easel makes perfectly straight edges as well as any slide frame I encountered. This maybe the reason they don't care about straight edges inside the camera: The solution is possibly at the end, not the beginning of the process. 

Edited August 30 by skahde

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[f8low]

20 hours ago, skahde said:

I can report that my 30x40 cm Leitz-easel makes perfectly straight edges as well as any slide frame I encountered. This maybe the reason they don't care about straight edges inside the camera: The solution is possibly at the end, not the beginning of the process. 

What I like doing (be it in the darkroom or in Lightroom) is to keep a thin black line framing the photograph. Sure, I can 'fake' that but if I shoot film I like sticking with the original. The borders are always somewhat 'organic' and that's lovely but if they're systematically bent like with the M-A the aesthetics suffer imho.

Random HCB print as an example https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91W04fvG6HL._SL1500_.jpg

[burchyk]

Small update. Got a second M-A body (silver, used, made in 2020) to carry me over while the other one went to Wetzlar with no return ETA. Visually inspected the gate before buying. Results are better than the previous one, but still nowhere near what most other major manufacturers do (e.g. my old Nikon FE).

Attaching a scan from the new (to me) silver M-A. Cranked the contrast and added a red rectangle to make it easier to see.

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