Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[don daniel]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv:

The problem is that many camera brands produce cameras that take good photographs. Leica produces cameras that enable the photographer to take good (imo better) photographs. 

I get the white balance and the colours just the way I want them. But it takes more effort than with my Nikon Z9, and it means that I can't use the JPGs from the camera. I know that's not an argument for many people here. But with the Q2 I often just used the JPGs from the camera. I'm not lazy, I'm prepared to do something to ensure that I get the best possible results from photos that I really like. But it could be so much easier if Leica made an effort to give us a better starting point. Even after years of shooting with Leica M cameras, I still have the impression that it is not possible to achieve really convincing results without expert knowledge and a higher level of effort.

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[jaapv]

Of course, but here we are dealing with members (with all due respect) who are clearly not all very conversant with the ins and outs of postprocessing, colour managed workflows etc. In fact I doubt whether all are working on a calibrated monitor to begin with. A simple process that mitigates the problem is the way to go. Added to which, for general photography it is more than sufficient.

[lct]

All this for a mere magenta or red cast my 15 years old CS3 can fix in a couple of clicks. I just hope the next firmware update won't be more difficult to adjust in PP. I sometimes wonder if Leica owners are not jpeg users for the most part.

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

All this for a mere magenta or red cast my 15 years old CS3 can fix in a couple of clicks. I just hope the next firmware update won't be more difficult to adjust in PP. I sometimes wonder if Leica owners are not jpeg users for the most part.

Indeed. KISS 😉

[jaapv]

19 minutes ago, don daniel said:

I get the white balance and the colours just the way I want them. But it takes more effort than with my Nikon Z9, and it means that I can't use the JPGs from the camera. I know that's not an argument for many people here. But with the Q2 I often just used the JPGs from the camera. I'm not lazy, I'm prepared to do something to ensure that I get the best possible results from photos that I really like. But it could be so much easier if Leica made an effort to give us a better starting point. Even after years of shooting with Leica M cameras, I still have the impression that it is not possible to achieve really convincing results without expert knowledge and a higher level of effort.

If Leica doesn't, DIY...

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, don daniel said:

Even after years of shooting with Leica M cameras, I still have the impression that it is not possible to achieve really convincing results without expert knowledge and a higher level of effort.

Not necessarily expert knowledge, but a sound understanding of photography and digital colour basics, and digital post processing. But where I differ from some here is that I don't expect photographs to be perfect SOOC - I always put in the effort to work on them. Back in film days, one could buy a high end camera and lens, drop your exposed film into Snappy Snaps and get your enprints back an hour later. To get a quality image you had to work on it in the dark room. These days a JPG is an enprint - and I wouldn't spend £5k on a camera to get an enprint. To get a decent image you have to work on the DNG like the digital negative it is - but frankly I find digital post processing a lot easier and quicker than using a darkroom.

Edited November 21, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

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38 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

[...] But where I differ from some here is that I don't expect photographs to be perfect SOOC - I always put the effort to work on them [...]

+1. An an ex Canon, Nikon and Ricoh user, now Leica, Sony and Sigma, i am never happy with jpeg results. Each brand has its own profile that i may like more or less, as a starting point, but i have always something to add, my own tastes, and i don't expect Leica or other brands to do it for me. BTW it is somewhat strange that Leica users praising the "Leica look" want neutral colors. There are other profiles for that, they are easy to use, even by people with modest PP skills like yours truly.

Edited November 21, 2023 by lct

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, don daniel said:

it could be so much easier if Leica made an effort to give us a better starting point.

did you email leica support with sample files?

[don daniel]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb frame-it:

did you email leica support with sample files?

I am in contact with Leica about this. I can't say any more about it.

[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

I don't expect photographs to be perfect SOOC

I don't expect that either. But I do expect a good starting point, which in many cases can remain the end point. As far as magenta is concerned, the M11 gives too much of a certain colour taste.

[elmars]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb don daniel:

I am in contact with Leica about this. I can't say any more about it.

We both are. And as I said before: The more people write directly to Leica, the more likely it is that a change or an additional option will be added.

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

To get a decent image you have to work on the DNG like the digital negative it is - but frankly I find digital post processing a lot easier and quicker than using a darkroom.

Indeed.  Digital processing is not just easier and quicker, but far more flexible. The hard part, whether darkroom or digital, is not learning the techniques (abundant resources are available); it’s deciding when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques.  It has never been ‘plug and play’ for best results. User judgment has remained key for every part of photography, from shot to final output.
 

Jeff

[la1402]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Indeed.  Digital processing is not just easier and quicker, but far more flexible. The hard part, whether darkroom or digital, is not learning the techniques (abundant resources are available); it’s deciding when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques.  It has never been ‘plug and play’ for best results. User judgment has remained key for every part of photography, from shot to final output.
 

Jeff

Yes indeed. Only Leica makes it more difficult with the M11 than anybody else, included themselves - M10, M10R, Q2 provided a much easier starting point. 

[Miltz]

I don’t own the M11, but I can understand what you’re saying. I have the Q3 and it leans towards magenta compared to my Nikon Z6. The thing is there is no perfect white balance in camera. I never really heard anyone complain about the colors on the Z6, but skin tones to me looked awful. Everyone looked sick. I had to custom correct it in camera. That’s what Leica is missing here. A way to let the user adjust in camera white balance. I definitely prefer the Q3 white balance over the Z6. I hear the Q3 is very similar to the M11 so take that as you wish. 

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Yes indeed. Only Leica makes it more difficult with the M11 than anybody else, included themselves - M10, M10R, Q2 provided a much easier starting point. 

For you, apparently; some may prefer as is.  The good news is that establishing a different starting point is not very difficult.

Jeff

[lct]

18 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Yes indeed. Only Leica makes it more difficult with the M11 than anybody else, included themselves - M10, M10R, Q2 provided a much easier starting point.

I have no experience with those cameras but as far as PP is concerned, the M11 could hardly be easier to use to me. YMMV.

Edited November 21, 2023 by lct

[la1402]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

Of course, but here we are dealing with members (with all due respect) who are clearly not all very conversant with the ins and outs of postprocessing, colour managed workflows etc. In fact I doubt whether all are working on a calibrated monitor to begin with. A simple process that mitigates the problem is the way to go. Added to which, for general photography it is more than sufficient.

Or maybe progress is so slow in the Leica world because we are also dealing with too many long term members who just decide to turn a blind eye? Condescending statement like above are not helpful at all. The Magenta cast in the M11 is a real issue, and a stronger one than the usual brand specific tints of other cameras.

[lct]

13 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Or maybe progress is so slow in the Leica world because we are also dealing with too many long term members who just decide to turn a blind eye? Condescending statement like above are not helpful at all. The Magenta cast in the M11 is a real issue, and a stronger one than the usual brand specific tints of other cameras.

Not for me sorry. I may be a long term member but this magenta cast claim is a new thing to me. I wanted to check if this is a jpeg issue so i took the OOC jpeg below but i did not find such a cast any more than in my usual DNG's.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/383478-leica-m11-firmware-v-201/?do=findComment&comment=4917431

 

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[LocalHero1953]

50 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Yes indeed. Only Leica makes it more difficult with the M11 than anybody else, included themselves - M10, M10R, Q2 provided a much easier starting point. 

How 'more difficult'? Once you have an alternative profile, or import preset, there's nothing else to do. I don't have a M11, but I've been through this with the M9 and M240.

[don daniel]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb lct:

Not for me sorry. I may be a long term member but this magenta cast claim is a new thing to me. I wanted to check if this is a jpeg issue so i took the OOC jpeg below but i did not find such a cast any more than in my usual DNG's.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/383478-leica-m11-firmware-v-201/?do=findComment&comment=4917431

 

I see a very subtle magenta tint here, but it is more a blue tint - no problem for me here because it seems a natural colour of the sky here.