Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[don daniel]

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Oh my God: Currently, it seems that the most useful tip does not come from those who deny the problem, but from someone who simply takes the trouble to work on it concretely!
First shot with awful magenta cast. Second image is the same shot, but corrected as jgeenen has described it above: much, much better! It is very simple to make an import profile from this. I'll have to check how I like this adjustment in different lighting situations.

 

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[don daniel]

Another example without and with adjustments. The Holocaust-Mahnmal in Berlin. 

 

 

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[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, don daniel said:

Oh my God: Currently, it seems that the most useful tip does not come from those who deny the problem, but from someone who simply takes the trouble to work on it concretely!
First shot with awful magenta cast. Second image is the same shot, but corrected as jgeenen has described it above: much, much better! It is very simple to make an import profile from this. I'll have to check how I like this adjustment in different lighting situations.

 

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I think there is nothing wrong with either one. I think it is a little change, N1 the building has a bolder color and warmer, and the bottom one is a little green for my taste.

It would be interesting to see it at brighter exposure.

On another point it is hard to get good color reproduction in skin colors, I think your edit will make people look green. can't please everyone!

 

[Photoworks]

here are some photos of out the camera from M11.

 

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[jgeenen]

Thanks for sharing, Photoworks. Your photos are perfect examples for photos that don't benefit from "magenta treatment" that I used earlier. There are certain color combinations (including grey) and lighting situations that are very resistent to magenta shifts. Luckily this is true for the  complementary color shift as well - so applying my profile does not harm either (I tested it and the variation is visible but negligible). 

You are absolutely correct, reproduction of skin tones is a key challenge. Unfortunately I don't have too many portraits to test (that's why I count on you guys to challenge my curve attempt), but the ones I was able to check did not suffer from green cast after treatment. Why? Partly because the treatment is very moderate and mainly affects mid tones. It does not affect lighter or darker skin tones as much as mid tones. 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by jgeenen

[lct]

5 hours ago, lct said:

For those disliking the M11 profile, i would not rule out the simple fix consisting in replacing it with a generic one, as suggested [...] Can be done with a couple of clicks in iCorrect for those interested [...]

I meant a couple of clicks in Iridient Developer sorry.

[jgeenen]

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb lct:

I meant a couple of clicks in Iridient Developer sorry.

Thanks. I desperately searched for a tool iCorrect and already doubted my Google skills 🙂. 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

Thanks. I desperately searched for a tool iCorrect and already doubted my Google skills 🙂. 

Sorry again.

[don daniel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Photoworks:

I think there is nothing wrong with either one. I think it is a little change, N1 the building has a bolder color and warmer, and the bottom one is a little green for my taste.

It would be interesting to see it at brighter exposure.

On another point it is hard to get good color reproduction in skin colors, I think your edit will make people look green. can't please everyone!

 

Sorry, I see a huge difference. And your examples would also benefit from this adjustment, especially the second one. Skin tones seem better, too. And I can cure my JPGs by the same treatment. Still trying other lighting situations though. In artificial light I often see no problem at all and I would not want to correct the color profile then. 

[Cattoo]

7 hours ago, don daniel said:

In artificial light I often see no problem at all and I would not want to correct the color profile then. 

One solution is to create different color profiles for different lighting situations or different camera/lens combos.  See the link below.      

https://petapixel.com/how-to-use-color-checker-photography/#How_Many_Profiles_is_Enough

 

[don daniel]

Today, I was out briefly in daylight and rain. The recommended profile above doesn't help much in those conditions, nor does it work well in artificial light. It's a profile designed for sunshine. Unfortunately, it confirms my impression that it's not just a color profile issue, but indeed a white balance problem. When I adjust the white balance, I always achieve colors that are suitable for me without manipulating the tone curve. So, it remains a wish of mine that Leica improves this and creates an option for a white balance that is not magenta-heavy.

[hjddd]

1 hour ago, don daniel said:

今天，我在白天和下雨的情况下短暂外出。上面推荐的配置文件在这些条件下没有多大帮助，在人造光下也效果不佳。这是专为阳光设计的轮廓。不幸的是，它证实了我的印象：这不仅仅是颜色配置文件问题，而且确实是白平衡问题。当我调整白平衡时，我总是能在不操纵色调曲线的情况下获得适合我的颜色。因此，我仍然希望徕卡能够改进这一点，并为白平衡创建一个不偏洋红色的选项。

thats right。at least we let them know that the M11 series indeed have the problem

[jgeenen]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb don daniel:

Today, I was out briefly in daylight and rain. The recommended profile above doesn't help much in those conditions, nor does it work well in artificial light. It's a profile designed for sunshine. Unfortunately, it confirms my impression that it's not just a color profile issue, but indeed a white balance problem. When I adjust the white balance, I always achieve colors that are suitable for me without manipulating the tone curve. So, it remains a wish of mine that Leica improves this and creates an option for a white balance that is not magenta-heavy.

Interesting, something I‘d like to understand better. Can you post a sample or two? My profile „hack“ was done on a cloudy day and at least for me it seems to work reasonably well to remove the magenta cast under natural light conditions from rainy to sunny (which is more than I hoped for). I don’t believe it will work under artificial light as most modern light sources in the field have a unique cast that requires individual tuning anyhow.

don‘t get me wrong, I still believe, Leica made a „not so good“ decision for the M11 colors (someone mentioned it was based on Kodachrome 64, but if you ever did a mixed slide show with Kodachrome and Ektachrome you know that Kodachrome was never neutral and Paul Simon is a good musician but a bad photographer) and I hope for an in-camera solution. But until then I want to use my M11 as efficient as possible.

All the best and listen to the song….

„Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
Give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama, don't take my Kodachrome away“

for the German speakers I cannot hesitate to quote Nina Hagen 

„Du hast den Farbfilm vergessen, mein Michael
Nun glaubt uns kein Mensch, wie schön's hier war, haha, haha
Du hast den Farbfilm vergessen bei meiner Seel
Alles blau und weiß und grün und später nicht mehr wahr“

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by jgeenen

[don daniel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jgeenen:

Interesting, something I‘d like to understand better. Can you post a sample or two? My profile „hack“ was done on a cloudy day and at least for me it seems to work reasonably well to remove the magenta cast under natural light conditions from rainy to sunny (which is more than I hoped for). I don’t believe it will work under artificial light as most modern light sources in the field have a unique cast that requires individual tuning anyhow.

Sorry, I made a mistake in Lightroom! You are right! Your profile hack works also on a cloudy day! I'll have to try if it is really different from simply moving the tint slider to the left, because I do not know any other camera that produces tint values of over +20 at AWB in normal daylight.

[hjddd]

We keep this thread hot to see what Leica will do in the coming new firmware^

[Overgaard]

46 minutes ago, hjddd said:

We keep this thread hot to see what Leica will do in the coming new firmware^

This should not be corrected in firmware as that would then make the colors look strange to the 50% who seem to like the colors (and color cast) of the Leica M11. 

I have suggested that Leica make it possible to choose between looks, meaning that the camera would offer two (or more) DNG profiles to choose from. One as the one it came out with and which it uses now, and a new "Neutral" or "Color True" profile.

Fundamentally a camera should only offer one look, and that one should be correct colors. In case of the Leica M11 where it doesn't, but nobody at the factory seem to have noticed before 18 months after the release, the solution could be to include one more (correct) profile. 

The profiles could also be changed on editing level, meaning that Adobe and Capture One make updated profiles. But again, it would have to be new additional, alternative profiles, not changing the ones that was made when the camera came out (because if they changed the core of the existing profile, suddenly all your final edited pictures would change).  

Of f# problem to have with a camera. 

In any case, been working with this since May and will be releasing a couple of new articles on M11 exposure and M11 fixing colors in the next weeks. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, hjddd said:

We keep this thread hot to see what Leica will do in the coming new firmware^

I don't know whom is "we" but thanks no thanks as far as i'm concerned. I see no magenta cast out of my raw converter and the slight red oversaturation of the M11 profile can be pleasant at times and is easy to adjust in PP anyway.

[la1402]

There is no need to discuss whether the magenta tint is there. It is very obviously there in jpeg and in Adobe software, which is mainstream and Leicas Partner for Raw and therefore absolutely ok to use as a reference point. But how much of an issue that is, is a personal thing, and acceptable corrections are quick and easy. My Sony A7RVs AWB  is almost equally wrong towards yellow. Depending on subject, lighting and personal taste, either tint can be helpful or destructive. 

But I would be more interested if people found new ways of dealing with it. 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by la1402

[lct]

41 minutes ago, la1402 said:

There is no need to discuss whether the magenta tint is there. It is very obviously there in jpeg and in Adobe software, which is mainstream and Leicas Partner for Raw and therefore absolutely ok to use as a reference point. [...]

Depends on the purpose of that reference point. If it is for a firmware update thanks no thanks again as i don't use LR or other Adobe software for raw conversion.

Edited December 16, 2023 by lct

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[nthomas]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:47 PM, lct said:

I don't know whom is "we" but thanks no thanks as far as i'm concerned. I see no magenta cast out of my raw converter and the slight red oversaturation of the M11 profile can be pleasant at times and is easy to adjust in PP anyway.

I am quite agreed with you. I personally think the slightly magenta cast and red tendency produce the best M digital series skin tone so far