Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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I would regard a lack of postprocessing on my images as sheer laziness. The camera produces a half product; the only thing that counts is the result that the photographer produces. Blaming tools is unprofessional.

The computer-with-a-lens brands have created a generation of image makers that expect the machine to replace craftsmanship. Some of this seems to carry over into the Leica world. That is a shame. 

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[la1402]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I would regard a lack of postprocessing on my images as sheer laziness. The camera produces a half product; the only thing that counts is the result that the photographer produces. Blaming tools is unprofessional.

The computer-with-a-lens brands have created a generation of image makers that expect the machine to replace craftsmanship. Some of this seems to carry over into the Leica world. That is a shame. 

Yeah to the first topic. But that is not the point and never has been, and is an intellectually lazy way to avoid taking another perspective. No one claims that the M11 it should be great out the box - nothing else is. But denying obvious shortcomings by continuously arguing a point no one has made is justifying the earlier AI bot perception. 

And denigrating companies with a rich photographic history like Nikon as computer-with-lens brands is strange for someone who uses a computer-from-Panasonic-with-lens-from-Sigma that only dresses itself up as Leica. 

Without those brands partnership Leica would be history. 

[M11 for me]

There are cameras that produce an ooc image (dng) that is easy to transform into a beautiful final picture full of beautiful colors and there are other cameras that make it quite difficult in many cases. To me the M11 clearly belongs to the first category. I can understand though that some might suffer from the rendering of the M11 (magenta cast). But as it is so easy to correct in post I belong to the group of users here who would not like to see any change made by Leica. Leica might eventually change something and then we will see a different ooc image but probably not a better one. So I much prefer to live with status quo.

Remember the beginning of the M11 after its launch last year. How often could we read that the M11 colors are the most natural of all Leica cameras. To me this is still true (I know Qs and Ms). I make a lot of landscape or nature and I like the behavior of the M11. 

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb la1402:

history like Nikon

Oh, Nikon. I do not like those colors at all. Never did.🎻🎻🎻

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Yeah to the first topic. But that is not the point and never has been, and is an intellectually lazy way to avoid taking another perspective. No one claims that the M11 it should be great out the box - nothing else is. But denying obvious shortcomings by continuously arguing a point no one has made is justifying the earlier AI bot perception. 

And denigrating companies with a rich photographic history like Nikon as computer-with-lens brands is strange for someone who uses a computer-from-Panasonic-with-lens-from-Sigma that only dresses itself up as Leica. 

Without those brands partnership Leica would be history. 

Where did I mention Nikon?

[lct]

5 minutes ago, la1402 said:

denying obvious shortcomings by continuously arguing a point no one has made is justifying the earlier AI bot perception. 

Obvious to you and some other people but not to everybody. I seem to have demonstrated above that i never have problems with the so-called magenta cast issue, or more exactly i only have problems in the rare occasions when i use Adobe raw converters. The only shortcomings i see then is Leica working with Adobe, perhaps, but the fix is so simple that i wonder why we're wasting our time in discussing such matters. BTW for those with little PP skills i would recommend a little software called iCorrect it is very easy to use and results can be very nice with it. FWIW.

[jaapv]

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Quite. Lack of (or unwillingness to apply) craftsmanship leads to highly overblown “issues”. 

[don daniel]

Everyone has formed an opinion. It's the one they already had at the beginning. I am curious to see what Leica will do.

[Kwesi]

Sure feels like now that the freezing issue has been "forumed" to death, w'eve moved on to the "magenta crisis".

When, oh when will my poor silver chrome M11 get the love it deserves on this forum ? 😀

[lct]

14 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

When, oh when will my poor silver chrome M11 get the love it deserves on this forum ? 😀

Reminds me of a rumour that some silver Summilux 35 pre-FLE lenses were free from focus shift contrary to black ones. Judging by your silver M11 and mine it could be the same for color shifts out of silver cameras 😄

 

 

[LBJ2]

31 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Sure feels like now that the freezing issue has been "forumed" to death, w'eve moved on to the "magenta crisis".

When, oh when will my poor silver chrome M11 get the love it deserves on this forum ? 😀

Somebody had to say it. LOL 👍🏼

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, don daniel said:

Everyone has formed an opinion. It's the one they already had at the beginning. I am curious to see what Leica will do.

When has anyone’s opinion on any matter ever been changed by an argument on any forum on the internet, ever?

[elmars]

Before the trenches get too deep here: The fact that we are arguing here is probably because one group likes the magenta cast while the other does not. Wouldn't it be good if Leica gave users a choice, as I have suggested before, and built two settings into the firmware? One with tint +20 (as before), one with tint +10 (somewhat more moderate).

[don daniel]

I get the impression that those who don't see the magenta cast are totally against Leica changing anything about the color balance that they wouldn't see either. These people haven't even noticed that the M11 has a totally different white balance than the M10-R. And those whose religion is that we must first earn a good image result by creating our own color profiles cannot allow it to be a little easier for others. Apparently, the reality of professional media work, for example, is not considered worthy of a Leica: simply getting the most authentic image possible from the camera, which can also be made available quickly, is not a professional requirement? Can anyone seriously be against Leica creating a white balance option that can help many of us achieve our goals with less effort?
By the way: For me, the contempt that is shown for JPG as a format here in the forum is part of the same ideology that is far removed from practice.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

Before the trenches get too deep here: The fact that we are arguing here is probably because one group likes the magenta cast while the other does not. Wouldn't it be good if Leica gave users a choice, as I have suggested before, and built two settings into the firmware? One with tint +20 (as before), one with tint +10 (somewhat more moderate).

A sympathetic idea but Leica always tries to avoid extra complexity.  My guess is that they will look at the matter and decide whether it is worth it to change the AWB in a future firmware update. I personally think it would be a good idea as it would make the “it must be perfect (?) OOC” owners happy whilst the rest couldn’t care less. 

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb elmars:

Before the trenches get too deep here: The fact that we are arguing here is probably because one group likes the magenta cast while the other does not. Wouldn't it be good if Leica gave users a choice, as I have suggested before, and built two settings into the firmware? One with tint +20 (as before), one with tint +10 (somewhat more moderate).

As a matter of fact Canon in its R5 gives you more than one option for AWB (auto white balance: "White Priority" or "Ambient Priority"). One can choose what suits best. I think that you make a very valid suggestion.

[grahamc]

I took a loan M11 for a walk compared side by side with my M10.  Same lens mounted on each camera as it's a lens I own 2 copies of.   The following results were quite typical : 

This one as RAW imported to Lightroom and not white balance corrected:

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This one with both images white balance corrected using the same spot on the grey area of the rear of the post (bottom right):

I probably don't need to tell you which side is the M11 and which is M10 .

For my personal tastes (and yes I like to post-produce my images) I much preferred the M10 as a starting point on almost all of the images that I took (there were other differences in that starting point such as a 'flatter' look to the larger sensor of the M11 images, which is to be expected).

 

 
 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by grahamc

[M11 for me]

52 minutes ago, jaapv said:

A sympathetic idea but Leica always tries to avoid extra complexity. My guess is that they will look at the matter and decide whether it is worth it to change the AWB in a future firmware update. I personally think it would be a good idea as it would make the “it must be perfect (?) OOC” owners happy whilst the rest couldn’t care less. 

That is fair as well. Thank you.

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[jaapv]

27 minutes ago, grahamc said:

I took a loan M11 for a walk compared side by side with my M10.  Same lens mounted on each camera as it's a lens I own 2 copies of.   The following results were quite typical : 

This one as RAW imported to Lightroom and not white balance corrected:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This one with both images white balance corrected using the same spot on the grey area of the rear of the post (bottom right):

I probably don't need to tell you which side is the M11 and which is M10 .

For my personal tastes (and yes I like to post-produce my images) I much preferred the M10 as a starting point on almost all of the images that I took (there were other differences in that starting point such as a 'flatter' look to the larger sensor of the M11 images, which is to be expected).

 

 
 

 

Looking carefully I would say that the M10 has a slight tendency towards Yellow and Cyan and the M11 towards Magenta. A good argument to always balance your starting point, irrespective off camera.

[grahamc]

Uncorrected:

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Corrected (same white balance dropper point):