Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[lct]

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7 minutes ago, don daniel said:

With the M11 there is no problem with the reds or with other colours. It simply has a faulty white balance

For you yes but not for me. I never found Leica WB perfect but i find the M11's better than that of the M240 personally. YMMV.

Edited November 23, 2023 by lct

[don daniel]

You are right. WB in the M240 ist not perfect. In the models before the M11 WB was sometimes incorrect, but mostly in temperature, not in tint. WB in the M10-R is much, much better than in the M11. The M11 is a much more modern camera than the M10(-R). Leica should bring these qualities together instead of losing one of them.

[lct]

I have no experience with M10 cameras but colors are a subjective matter and i don't find my M11 more difficult to adjust than my digital CL from this view point.

[jaapv]

Quite. I might add that Jono doesn’t complain either and we all know the level of the photographs he posts. 

[lct]

To avoid variables, i prefer using a single pic and compare color profiles exclusively.
Below M11 + S-A 21/3.4, auto WB, full frame and crops with M11 color profile vs generic Matrix color profile respectively.
What my old eyes seem to see in the M11 profile is zero WB issue, zero magenta cast, a bit more contrast and a bit more red saturation.
Subjectively, i prefer the M11 profile on the yellow flower and the generic one on the red flower.
FWIW

Full frame:

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Red flower with M11 profile:

Red flower with Matrix profile:

Yellow flower with M11 profile:

Yellow flower with Matrix profile:

 

[marchyman]

5 hours ago, lct said:

but colors are a subjective matter

Yes and no.  Mostly yes when looking at a real life images, especially one containing multiple colors.   No if I'm looking at something that should be grey and it turns out some other color.  I once had a (broken) Olympus that would render an image of an 18% gray card as orangish red.

To my eye the M11 is too magenta.   My fix is to change the starting white balance to 5600 +9 on import which gets most daylight images in the ballpark.  I tweak from there.

[lct]

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15 minutes ago, marchyman said:

Yes and no.  Mostly yes when looking at a real life images, especially one containing multiple colors.   No if I'm looking at something that should be grey and it turns out some other color.

I don't have a lot of grey things around me but when i happen to shoot slate roofs for instance i don't notice the magenta cast you seem to suffer from. I don't use LR though..

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I don't have a lot of grey things around me but when i happen to shoot slate roofs for instance i don't notice the magenta cast you seem to suffer from. I don't use LR though..

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Not surprising given that the magenta cast appears to be linked to Adobe products. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I don't use LR though..

Eureka? Adobe could well be the culprit in this magenta cast story. Just retrieved the DNG file of my pic above. Below converted to TIF with Photoshop Elements + 80% magenta saturation then with Silkypix + 80% magenta saturation. Quit playing with your magenta sliders, folks, or try another raw converter 😄 Just kidding.

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[LocalHero1953]

11 hours ago, elmars said:

Over the last few days I have been making my annual family album. I mixed photos from the M11 with some from the iPhone. The magenta cast of the M11 photos is clearly noticeable and I can't bear it without correction. In the vast majority of cases, I adjusted the M11 photos because the magenta cast was distracting (tint from +20 to +10).

Even without comparison with other cameras, there are many subjects that do not tolerate magenta. This includes everything that has a lot of grey areas, but also sandstone. Here I find the magenta downright unbearable, whereas with grey it can even be interesting. See the example picture with sandstone below. First: tint as shot +20; second: tint +10.

I can understand those who like magenta-coloured pictures. But it doesn't always fit, it's too clearly a flavour. As a starting point, I would find a tint of +10 good. Or even better: a selection option in the camera.

 

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Have you got these the right way round? I find the first fine, but the second has an unpleasant pink/magenta cast. Or have I misunderstood something?

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Quite. I might add that Jono doesn’t complain either and we all know the level of the photographs he posts. 

IIRC he sets his cameras to ‘daylight’ WB, and doesn’t use AWB. 

[LocalHero1953]

To those who think that anyone who disagrees with them is just making excuses for Leica, I would quote Lewis Carroll. “ ‘When I use white balance,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it shows just what I choose it to show — neither more nor less.’ “. I’m not interested in the absolute accuracy of AWB: it’s just unimportant. The colour and tone of my images are my choice. If the original scene was naturally cold, then I may choose to warm it up in post. And vice versa. And I take the same approach to tone, contrast, focus, saturation…….

I get that some people are upset about this. But that doesn’t mean we all have to be. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[la1402]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not surprising given that the magenta cast appears to be linked to Adobe products. 

You see the same tint in the M11s jpgs. Not to say that is a format what one should use, it just hints to the magenta cast not not only being related to Adobe. But it seems to me indeed less pronounced in the DNG Previews in the Windows 11 explorer.

36 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I get that some people are upset about this. But that doesn’t mean we all have to be. 

No, certainly not. Neither does it mean it is just lack of user knowledge or laziness when people get irritated about that magenta cast.

 

[lct]

5 minutes ago, la1402 said:

[...] it just hints to the magenta cast not not only being related to Adobe. But it seems to me indeed less pronounced in the DNG Previews in the Windows 11 explorer.

Adobe seems to be the worse if not the only culprit. It depends on raw converters anyway. I have no magenta issue with Silkypix for instance but a lot with Photoshop Elements, when i oversaturate magentas at least.

[elmars]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

IIRC he sets his cameras to ‘daylight’ WB, and doesn’t use AWB. 

The magenta cast is not only a problem of the AWB, but also of the fixed white balance settings. The values for tint in Lightroom are always +20. 

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, la1402 said:

You see the same tint in the M11s jpgs

Yes. And what program do you use to edit your jpgs?

[Edax]

Strange thing is that in Lightroom Classic WB settings change depending on origin of selected profile;

A "random" M11-P AWB picture opens with Adobe Color profile, gets WB setting 5000/23. Change to other Adobe profile, WB stays at 5000/23.

Changing profile to profile M11 changes WB to 5200/22. Change to a Cobalt profile, and WB values are same as with profile M11, 5200/22.

Opening same picture in Iridient, WB values become 5189/22.

The Lightroom fixed WB "outside" settings (daylight, cloudy, shade) set the tint to +10, visibly a much better starting point.

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, la1402 said:

No, certainly not. Neither does it mean it is just lack of user knowledge or laziness when people get irritated about that magenta cast.

Nor does it mean that people have to ignore simple remedies. In digital photography the file out of the camera is nothing more than a half-product. 

[la1402]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes. And what program do you use to edit your jpgs?

I normally don't shoot jpg. I did this just for comparison purposes and you see the tint when you just open your jpg on your PC with any MS jpg viewer.

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[jaapv]

That only means that Leica used the same or a similar profile to convert the data in-camera that Adobe uses for their conversion, which would hardly be surprising as those companies very likely coordinate their settings. The goddess of image processing did not spring from the head of Dr. Kaufmann... If companies did not cooperate on matters like these, digital photography would be impossible