Regular M11 camera bodies discontinued?

[Guest]

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55 minutes ago, algrove said:

I know about 50 other M11 users 

That's impressive. 

[rramesh]

Stores are free to decide what to sell. Stocking the latest and selling them is a wise decision.  

Also note that there are many prospective buyers who will not buy V1 of a new model and who would wait for kinks in design and manufacturing to be ironed out. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by rramesh

[DadDadDaddyo]

My guess is there will be some great opportunities coming for folks who want one to get hold of an M11, if their timing is right. 

On the other hand, once gone, there won't be any more; it'll all be the M11P, which will be bought up voraciously by folks who had their doubts about the M11 but want to upgrade, or folks who will immediately sell or trade their M11s at a loss, in order to get the "good version". 

Two things.

One: If you've got an M11, this might be a great time to hold on to it. Especially if you bought it to make photographs.

Two: Watch for an explosion of euphoria around, and shift in attention toward, the M11P, to be replaced rapidly by new throes of agony, gnashing of teeth, and self doubt as people start reporting perceived problems: freezes, strange colors, feeling let down by the sound of the shutter, too light, too heavy, no In-Body Stabilization, wrong resolution for my lenses, what have you. Oh yes, it's all about to begin again....

"Personally, I've always found the rendering of the (lens name here) V3 to be rather droll, even pedestrian, not to say vulgar, though I'm sure the dillitante might be amused by its impetuousness..."

"My newest camera strap is made from hand-stitched unborn ostrich pelt. Finally I've found one special enough to be shown in public! Yet, I just don't know... does it make my butt look big?"

"I'm going out with my M13-QRST. Should I wear my grey photographer's vest, my olive drab one, or my camouflage one?"

Here we go again...

Edited November 13, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[Photoworks]

34 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

My guess is there will be some great opportunities coming for folks who want one to get hold of an M11, if their timing is right. 

On the other hand, once gone, there won't be any more; it'll all be the M11P, which will be bought up voraciously by folks who had their doubts about the M11 but want to upgrade, or folks who will immediately sell or trade their M11s at a loss, in order to get the "good version". 

 

I am waiting for the next five special edition, I am sure they will take better snaps

[algrove]

10 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I am waiting for the next five special edition, I am sure they will take better snaps

My M11 does not freeze, but I do not take better "snaps" with it than I did with my M9, M9M, M240, M246, M10, M10R, M10M and did I forget one oh yes my Barnack 1C, Series O, M6 0.58, M6 0.85. Guess I should be buying Silver models instead of black so I look like HCB. Oh wait now I need a bunch of chrome lenses too. Oh, the heck with it I'll just buy another new camera which will surely make me a better photographer tomorrow. 

😏

Edited November 13, 2023 by algrove

[algrove]

1 hour ago, hjddd said:

My M11-P produced 2 broken DNGs in its first 40 shots。 The new firmware is bullshit 

That's a broken translation too.😁

[londond]

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4 hours ago, algrove said:

I'm with you and this freeze continuity is so over reported IMHO. I know about 50 other M11 users (some with 2 M11 and an M11M) and none have had a freeze.

Not sure is meant by “so over reported” - can’t recall any posts assessing the prevalence of the various problems, or indeed what an acceptable level would be. I’m sure people are honestly reporting the issues they encounter, which seems appropriate in a forum like this, sometimes prompting others to reply “mine doesn’t have it.” 

It seems generally understood these problems are sporadic, which is good for most people but makes it harder to fix for the minority.  I get a sample size of 50 is bigger than mine of 2 (both my M11 and M11M have problems post firmware update) not sure either is big enough to draw a conclusion.

[lct]

3 hours ago, algrove said:

My M11 does not freeze, but I do not take better "snaps" with it than I did with my M9, M9M, M240, M246, M10, M10R, M10M and did I forget one oh yes my Barnack 1C, Series O, M6 0.58, M6 0.85.

No freezes either here but i do take better, or less bad, snaps with the M11 than with earlier M cameras when i need live view, typically for macro and tele photography.

[algrove]

Agree the EVF helps and is necessary for using the new macro lenses

i sometimes adapt an old Mamiya 300 f5.6 and I must say using the center of the lens (35 vs MF) is necessary for me to get focus set with this lens, but it is still sharp in the center.

[algrove]

7 hours ago, londond said:

Not sure is meant by “so over reported” - can’t recall any posts assessing the prevalence of the various problems, or indeed what an acceptable level would be. I’m sure people are honestly reporting the issues they encounter, which seems appropriate in a forum like this, sometimes prompting others to reply “mine doesn’t have it.” 

It seems generally understood these problems are sporadic, which is good for most people but makes it harder to fix for the minority.  I get a sample size of 50 is bigger than mine of 2 (both my M11 and M11M have problems post firmware update) not sure either is big enough to draw a conclusion.

I am just saying that so many seem to talk about their freezes one could assume without the contrary comments that all M11 freeze. 
My sample size is 50 people and around 75 M11 and variants while not a huge number it is indicative that many M11 have no problems.

have you had your M11 checked by Leica for answers as to why yours freeze?

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 11/12/2023 at 8:45 AM, dkmoore said:

$450m revenue in 2022 for Leica Camera. I guess it boils down to definitions. 

In US terms 1B$ in revenue for a manufacturing company separates boys from men.  Of course, Leica long ago split into several companies, with the camera business on its own, cinema, in particular, separate and having its own clientele and a price scale that takes your breath away.  

[londond]

5 hours ago, algrove said:

I am just saying that so many seem to talk about their freezes one could assume without the contrary comments that all M11 freeze. 
My sample size is 50 people and around 75 M11 and variants while not a huge number it is indicative that many M11 have no problems.

have you had your M11 checked by Leica for answers as to why yours freeze?

Fair enough, agree people might assume that and it must be a minority that have problems. 

I’ve sent detailed reports to Leica, responses to date professional and courteous but they (hopefully) are still investigating.  Will happily take them to Mayfair if they advise, but would be sad if both cameras disappeared to Germany for a long time….

[algrove]

Just send in one st a time if it comes to that

[bilbrown]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:07 PM, scott kirkpatrick said:

Freeze issues have been narrowed down steadily by firmware corrections, and replacement of units with buggy hardware.  Leica doesn't talk about either item, and the M11-P may have been manufactured under tighter specifications.  I have an M11 and an M11-P, and they both perform the same.  No freezes, unless I intentionally jam it through shooting immediately after a power-on, or while shifting from shooting to review.  So my normal practices do not lead to freezes any more.

And Leica is certainly still a small company.  Annual M sales are a few 10,000s of units.

What do you mean by normal practices? I don't find anything normal about what we have to do  to get this camera to be consistent. Leica's "Most Stable M Ever." 

 

I have the M11-P and did not get an M11. I have had freeze issues or corrupt DNGs, I attributed it to jumping right in with my M10-R card, then I reformatted, changed the card to a new card, and still had them. I have a screw-mount Summaron-35 with Leica adapter-M that also may have done something, so I stopped using it for now, and then I also had a issue with flash sync and Hybrid shutter, so I changed it to mechanical. I stopped using Highlight weighted metering because someone told me it slowed down the camera. I turned off FOTOS completely when not is use because it was grabbing Geotagging when I had it on. I turned off geotagging just to make sure.

So, I listened to all the techs (who each gave me a different answer)... replacing the card with a fast UHS-II 300mb Sandisk and changing to mechanical shutter, AND when I know I will just shoot and shoot changing it to at least LOW burst instead of hitting the shutter release button over and over and over again like I did with (ahem) every-other-digital-M, oh and making S or M DNG + JPG (maybe even to the internal memory), resetting the camera, zeroing out a card on my Mac then reformatting it in camera, waiting until the camera fully starts up before shooting, no wait just shoot to the internal memory...  should do it... right?

 

Let me be clear, I know the hardware on the M11/M11M/M11-P are impressive, and firmware has fixed a great many things that this forum has discussed AT LENGTH. In the past we've had issues with the M9 corrosion, we had issues with the M8 IR blacks, the S lens motors, etc, etc. The M240/M246 I had were workhorses. The M10/M10R/M10M never failed like this and I didn't have to rethink the way I shoot.

I want an M to be my camera. My M-A is wonderful, my M7 had sure issues but is still going, I have an M2. Our lovely German Leica tech that on retirement just moved to Wetzlar and gives tours told me once when my Monochrom rangefinder was out of alignment, "A Leica should last 100 years." I don't even care if my digital cameras do, but I want them to work like they make me think I could keep it as long as I have kept my M8 running (my son uses it). The M11 body does not give me that confidence... and I think after much though I have figured out why.

 

My truthful assessment: Its a number of software glitches, but it is really inherent in the design of a camera that had a shutter mechanism and now has some sort of Franken-Mechanism that makes the shutter LOUDER than its predecessor (even the M10 and M240 had quieter mechanical shutters) and for everything to work properly (except of course flash) it should have a shutter similar to the SL2/SL2-S and it doesn't, in fact if using it as a hybrid or fully electronic shutter with the *Jelloing of rolling shutter how is this going to work.

I think it starts with Leica messing with the shutter to fit the new meter in, but it goes further than that. It's a philosophical mishap.

The ISSUE might just be that Leica tried its DAMNEDEST to put a postmodern mirrorless body with only stills in mind into a 70 year old rangefinder chassis. Maybe the M11-P is a better iteration, again, I don't know. I never had a M11 or M11-M... but my M11-P is still not performing the way I would expect. I have to think A LOT about how to use an M... a camera I have used for how long now? At least 17 years of digital M, and this is the grand finale?

 

But don't get me wrong, I get it. I get what this is. It's what the French call, Embarrass du choix. Too many choices.

If we shoot it with all of the thought and care of how this technology doesn't work well together, then make it work the way you want it to... then you get some of the best images possible from a sensor that is by far the best universally rated sensor Leica has EVER put in a camera. The battery life is by far the best, the back screen is superb and useable, etc, etc. It's a GREAT camera, but we know this.

When it's not a glitch  baby.

 

But is it really "The Essentials"?

 

There is a lot of stuff to think about when going into the field and going with one or two bodies. At this point I would be hesitant to go into an important shoot with just an M11/M11M/M11-P. Maybe that is what I would think with any camera, but especially with the above issues still present in the latter generation of this M11 family. Yeah, I can just *pop the battery out* or reset it (conveniently, you can reset while keeping your settings. Wonder why that was implemented and when?)

 

 

In Leica's own campaigns they call the Q2 the camera where you, "will never miss a moment." I've missed moments with my M11-P. Do I throw away all my M lenses and get a set of Q2, Q2M and Q3? Is it the lenses themselves that are the issue? Can they even fully resolve on this Sony sensor? Even in pixel binned 18MP I can see a difference from the M10M I kept (granted a monochrom in general is going to almost double resolve any sensor of similar resolution). 

 

You M11 early-adopters have already dealt with this. You stuck it out, eh. Okay. Why?

 

How do we shoot this thing? Are we simply in hopes the next iteration reverts to something simpler or at least less quirky in operation? Maybe the M12 will ship with a global shutter and the mechanical shutter gone. Maybe that will clear this up. I am fine with keeping the rangefinder, really. I don't care for a EVF M style camera. Maybe an M with one resolution and simple operation, mechanical shutter priority and all the little operations that are COOL about the M11 like putting the ISO on the button wheel and keeping the little button from the M240 as whatever-you-want, and the battery.

Maybe I want the "basic" firmware adjustment to make a setting to make it work like an M10 or something called "legacy", like that is ever gonna happen. Maybe I'm still just adjusting. 

 

I just want my premium camera to actually be my tool of choice and it's becoming harder to justify, over and over again.

Edited November 14, 2023 by bilbrown
clarity and errors

[bilbrown]

On 11/12/2023 at 6:39 PM, DadDadDaddyo said:

Two: Watch for an explosion of euphoria around, and shift in attention toward, the M11P, to be replaced rapidly by new throes of agony, gnashing of teeth, and self doubt as people start reporting perceived problems: freezes, strange colors, feeling let down by the sound of the shutter, too light, too heavy, no In-Body Stabilization, wrong resolution for my lenses, what have you. Oh yes, it's all about to begin again...

 

 

Yeah, I have that right here! haha as above suggests. 

 

But just as valid as launch, no?

 

And what did ya'll do about it? Push through?

[DadDadDaddyo]

Well, in some ways it's all about what the Brits call "Horses for courses", that is, knowing the characteristics of a tool and selecting from available tools what's needed for a particular task, based upon those characteristics. 

Have you ever, I mean, *ever* seen an M Series Leica on TV on the sidelines of a football or basketball game? No. What you see are Canons (discernable by their gigantic pale gray/beige stabilized lenses), or Nikons (for those diehards who won't be caught dead with a Canon). 

They're firing away at 15 fps in continuous subject-tracking auto-focus, flooding their buffers and cursing their batteries. 

How who would it work if I brought my M11 or M11M to the sidelines and tried to use it that way? First of all the subject-tracking auto-focus on the M series is simply *terrible, I mean, practically non-existant.

What's more, straying off of the practice of firing careful, single shots has proven, at times, to stress the M's composure. Heck, mine even froze a couple of times long ago in the old firmware when I switched it on and jammed my thumb onto the Play button before the body had finished booting up. I should return the thing!!!

So, I learned to modify my practices, to accommodate the characteristics, even weaknesses, of the body, to gain reliable access to its strengths. 

Not doing so is like taking a Harley Shovelhead onto a mountain trail and complaining that it isn't agile. 

Or complaining that your Lightning-class sloop simply stinks for water skiing. 

Or complaining that your mountain boots with crampons weren't great when you used them to run the Boston Marathon. 

I could go on. 

So, if I was *forced to take my M11 to the basketball game what would I do? I'd prefocus on the rim and time my shot for the correct single instant that the guy is stuffing the ball into the basket. I'd do so realizing that, even at 15 fps, the shutter is *closed for 885/1000 of that second.

No time for more examples right now, I have to go heat my dinner with my blowtorch and then hang my latest framed photo with my twelve pound sledge hammer.....

[T25UFO]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:39 AM, DadDadDaddyo said:

Especially if you bought it to make photographs.

What else would you do with it?

[DadDadDaddyo]

Why, you'd wear it of course! With your hand-stitched unborn ostrich pelt strap!

[charlesphoto99]

I've taken my M's into many situations one isn't 'supposed' to and come away with great, unique shots. Of course, that's because people hire/look to me for what I do, not what the CaNikony shooter next to me is doing (if they want that, then hire one of them). And for what I do, I do best with an M (these days). Which has nothing to do with the camera being reliable or not. I would want it to be reliable and not freeze up whether I'm photographing a basketball game, a child's birthday party, or a solo hike in the woods.

If it's a basketball game, and I took my M (and nobody's forcing me to do anything when it comes to camera choices) then it might not be about the perfect AF tracked slam dunk shot, but maybe the expressions of the players on the bench, or at the free throw line up, or the interplay on the court between bodies. IMO the only limiting factor is typically the talent and flexibility of the photographer's vision. 

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[DadDadDaddyo]

Exactly correct. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo