Leica M11-P: New Flagship With Content Authentication

[rramesh]

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Don’t understand the real value of content authentication in camera. It can always be done in post. 

[rramesh]

19 hours ago, tedwill said:

Hopefully Content Authentication will be a firmware update for the current M11 owners.

I believe it’s on a chip. Anyway it can done in post as Adobe and others support this standard. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by rramesh

[rramesh]

17 hours ago, elmars said:

No, each individual chip is given a special, unique code by the German Federal Printing Office (they also make the German ID cards) that is assigned only to that chip.

What happens when one sells the camera down the road? 

[Steve Ash]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rramesh:

Don’t understand the real value of content authentication in camera. It can always be done in post. 

Yes, there are a lot of things that can be done in post. But your comment makes utterly no sense. If it is true the concept would be flawed from the start and Leica supposedly would not offer it.

[Smudgerer]

12 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

Yes, there are a lot of things that can be done in post. But your comment makes utterly no sense. If it is true the concept would be flawed from the start and Leica supposedly would not offer it.

True, Leica have yet to make a mistake.

[elmars]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rramesh:

What happens when one sells the camera down the road? 

Content credentials is linked to the copyright info. A new owner does a reset and enters new copyright info.

[Simone_DF]

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2 hours ago, AndreasG said:

It is only a matter of time that tools will be made available to alter or delete the content authentication data.

Chipped hardware encryption creates a unique hashtag per device, and that in turn has to match the chipmaker’s decryption keys. Tampering content authentication will show as a digital alteration.  

Here’s a more detailed explanation:

Assertions are cryptographically hashed and their hashes are gathered together into a claim. A claim is a digitally signed data structure that represents a set of assertions along with one or more cryptographic hashes on the data of an asset. The signature ensures the integrity of the claim and makes the system tamper-evident[…]

Each time the asset reaches a specific key point in its lifecycle, such as initial creation, completion of some editing operations, publication to social media, etc. a new set of assertions and a claim are created. Each new claim refers to the previous claim, thus creating a chain of provenance for the asset

 

Source: Adobe

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, AndreasG said:

It is only a matter of time that tools will be made available to alter or delete the content authentication data.

You can already delete it, or not use this feature in the first place. But unless someone cracks it (which happened with Canon and Nikon's earlier proprietary image authentication schemes - hopefully this one will be more robust) the cryptography is designed to ensure that any tampering with the data will be detectable. If you want to be able to prove that your image is authentic and that all edits are documented, you need to use a camera with this feature enabled and image editing software that also supports authentication. If you don't want anyone to know how you've edited your image (or don't care), then obviously you won't turn this feature on, so the Sky Replacement crowd can still make their collages. But if it becomes an industry standard, journalists and others who need to be able to demonstrate authenticity may be required by their employers or clients to enable it throughout their workflow.

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, rramesh said:

I believe it’s on a chip. Anyway it can done in post as Adobe and others support this standard. 

But then the chain of authentication will only go back as far as Photoshop. You won't be able to say what camera you took it with, or even if it's a genuine photograph at all. For some purposes this may be all that is required (people will be able to tell if an image has been altered since it left your custody), but it won't help a journalist who needs to prove it started out as an in-camera image rather than some AI confection.

[padam]

3 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Is it just me or is there a "ho-hum" about this release of  the M11-P? Much ado about pretty much nothing?

After the M11 Monochrom, it was pretty clear what it's going to be.

[Anbaric]

14 hours ago, 250swb said:

So educate us all as to why a camera specific software logging and tracking 'programme' doesn't infiltrate your personal rights? While not always used honourably you have the right to dissemble about the camera manufacturer if you don't want any other f*****r knowing what you are doing. And if you are able to switch it off is a moot point because that is all this 'M11-P' is all about!

By default, the feature is switched off. From the CAI FAQ: "Protecting privacy is one of our guiding principles, so no CAI information is signed without an explicit user action to turn the feature on. Users can also control which categories of data they want to attach to their content."

[Anbaric]

12 hours ago, setuporg said:

You cannot prove a person took a photo unless you blend their DNA into it...  Perhaps M12 will have a DNA intake valve!

It could be like one of those guns in Judge Dredd that self-destruct if someone else tries to use them. That's a bit drastic for a Leica, though - I expect the camera will simply lock up, and can be reset at Wetzlar (for 500 Euros, with the standard 6-12 month turnaround time, of course).

[Anbaric]

16 hours ago, mujk said:

Clearly, the identity of the creator is not possible to authenticate, because this is just any text entered by the user in the copyright and produced by fields. But is there any  information that would pinpoint the specific camera used, e.g. serial number? At least the video does not seem to show any such information.

Lots of camera embed the serial number in metadata today, though it's not generally secured in any way. But oddly enough, you can tell if anyone has tampered with the serial number in raw files from my Nikon, because the serial number is one of the decryption keys for Nikon's misguided scheme to secure some of their MakerNote metadata, including 'as shot' white balance. If you change the serial number with a metadata editor, you can no longer read the white balance data from the raw file.

[Jon Warwick]

5 hours ago, Edax said:

M11 8750 Euro, M11-P 8950 Euro. For only 200 Euro 256 GB storage, sapphire glass on monitor, engraved top logo, no ugly red dot, and the LCC feature...

Yes, if I was looking for a brand new M11 I’d probably opt for the -P variant for the extras you mention, especially the storage and engraving for me. As a separate angle, though, given used M11s are around and about (eg, I got a mint one over summer from a dealer for £2k less than new) the choice is rather less obvious in terms of pricing, for me at least, assuming one is happy to buy an M11 in the used market. 

[jdlaing]

6 hours ago, Antonio Russell said:

Then why are Leica marketing it as such?

I don’t believe they are.

[haikos]

19 hours ago, setuporg said:

Anti-theft would be great, but looks like CAI function is optional and could be turned off.  An embedded AirTag that's always on would be better...

Air Tag only works if another Apple device passes in its vicinity and pings it. It's not a realtime GPS unless its owner is on the app and can connect to it.
Plus, the air tag is not so tiny, relatively speaking.

[grahamc]

Remember the removable baseplate. Boy were they simpler times 😍

Edited October 27, 2023 by grahamc

[Antonio Russell]

58 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I don’t believe they are.

"It can be difficult for photographers to prove authorship of their own photographs"

Source: https://leica-camera.com/en-int/news/partnership-greater-trust-digital-photography-leica-and-content-authenticity-initiative

[steveBK]

19 minutes ago, haikos said:

Air Tag only works if another Apple device passes in its vicinity and pings it. It's not a realtime GPS unless its owner is on the app and can connect to it.
Plus, the air tag is not so tiny, relatively speaking.

It does work remarkably well given that the density of apple devices in any inhabited area is quite high
This is why using it to track luggage works fairly well - can gain some confidence that checked bags make it through transit and onto connecting flight, when its going to pop onto luggage carousel, etc 

I think another generation or two of shrinking the size of them and they'll have even more use cases
I can already fit one in all my bags, house/car keychains and in my wallet
You could already now probably hide one in the cushioning of a camera strap if one was creative enough.. 

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[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, costa43 said:

 The 28mm summicron looks good though. Has there been an update on whether it shares the same optical formula as the current asph v2?

Same optical formula… video, post #83, at end.

Jeff