Does bokeh matter?

[Olaf_ZG]

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Just bought a 5.6 lens. I guess bokeh won’t be seen…

[DrM]

27 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Just bought a 5.6 lens. I guess bokeh won’t be seen…

Well, depends on the focal length, subject distance.. https://www.photopills.com/calculators/dof 

 

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[jaeger]

On 10/15/2023 at 9:10 AM, DrM said:

Hi

With the new AI feature for bokeh (https://petapixel.com/2023/10/10/lightroom-has-a-new-lens-blur-feature-that-simulates-depth-of-field/), how much do you still go for a specific lens character? Maybe a bit provocative, but with the rise of computational photography, how much value is shifting from lens to post-processing, and are you taking (or do you see yourself) making different lens choices in the future? See an example below.

Best,

Marc

Don't be ashamed.  Even on films, there are burning and dodging or what not cheats.  Anyone who shoots jepg has already processed their photos with some AI improvements.  I bet you not, 100% of the people today did some photo improvements at some point (or obliviously).  Nobody can define "too much" or "enough" editing.  Technically there are no unedited jepg photos, all jepg images have been touched.  Whoever shoots RAW because they want to edit the photos their own. 

Just some more fruits for thoughts, do you think using tilt-shift lenses consider not authentic?  Notice, it changed the geometry that naked eyes don't see it in person.  Most tilt-shift lens owners will claim your works aren't authentic if you use software correction. 

You can just ignore those people who lived in the past while shooting jepgs - hypocrites 

 

[lincoln_m]

jaeger, Ah yes good point about tilt and shift which I associate mainly with Large Format analogue sheet film cameras but isn't it a new feature in M10R and M11 now? I must admit I'm making use of the Lr Transform feature for vertical and rotate adjustments to straighten any background converging/diverging verticals and wonky horizons.

If my original image's background was already blurred (summilux/noctilux lenses?) then I probably wouldn't notice the tilted horizontals/verticals. At least now we have some features we can apply in post if needed to "improve" a shot taken in haste. 

I agree with the earlier comment answering the question, "does bokeh matter?" , that if the bokeh is the main thing noticed about your photo then you haven't done a good enough job with making the subject (the in focus part) interesting.

My answer to the question is, "Yes sometimes it does matter, to me". If it appears harsh and distracting , then it becomes a noticeable part of the image when that wasn't my intention. I'm slowly learning that the bokeh can appear different for the same lens depending on how close the subject is to the lens and how far away the background is. I'm going to have to practice much more to learn how each lens renders the background at different apertures/distances, a lifetimes work.

On M cameras we can't always shoot wide open in bright light when we only have a min ISO of 100 and min shutter of 1/4000.

I remember some brave person said they shot a whole wedding with 50mm Noctilux wide open. I can't remember if it was on an M body or an SL. Noctilux on M rangefinder sounds tricky for accurate focus for portraits. With an SL you can focus peak/zoom via the joystick but that's even slower.

 

[Erato]

Quote "The M11-P pioneers the use of secure metadata in compliance with the Content Authenticity Initiative (CAI) open-source standard. This feature provides an additional layer of transparency when designing and modifying an image. It allows information such as names, dates, changes made and tools used to be securely attached, creating awareness of the file's origin. With Content Credentials, each Leica M11-P image captured receives a digital signature backed by a CAI-compliant certificate. The authenticity of images can be easily verified at any time using a freely available, open-source CAI tool or by visiting https://contentcredentials.org/verify ."

 

[Ecar]

Expect a new sub-forum for CAI-compliant, unadulterated images soon...

[jaeger]

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3 hours ago, lincoln_m said:

jaeger, Ah yes good point about tilt and shift which I associate mainly with Large Format analogue sheet film cameras but isn't it a new feature in M10R and M11 now? I must admit I'm making use of the Lr Transform feature for vertical and rotate adjustments to straighten any background converging/diverging verticals and wonky horizons.

If my original image's background was already blurred (summilux/noctilux lenses?) then I probably wouldn't notice the tilted horizontals/verticals. At least now we have some features we can apply in post if needed to "improve" a shot taken in haste. 

I agree with the earlier comment answering the question, "does bokeh matter?" , that if the bokeh is the main thing noticed about your photo then you haven't done a good enough job with making the subject (the in focus part) interesting.

My answer to the question is, "Yes sometimes it does matter, to me". If it appears harsh and distracting , then it becomes a noticeable part of the image when that wasn't my intention. I'm slowly learning that the bokeh can appear different for the same lens depending on how close the subject is to the lens and how far away the background is. I'm going to have to practice much more to learn how each lens renders the background at different apertures/distances, a lifetimes work.

On M cameras we can't always shoot wide open in bright light when we only have a min ISO of 100 and min shutter of 1/4000.

I remember some brave person said they shot a whole wedding with 50mm Noctilux wide open. I can't remember if it was on an M body or an SL. Noctilux on M rangefinder sounds tricky for accurate focus for portraits. With an SL you can focus peak/zoom via the joystick but that's even slower.

 

Right on, technically adjusting anything including crop, temperature, etc... is editing, so bokeh was just one of them.  There is no boundary to define which editing parameter is considered authentic of fake.  These people who shout out loud "it's fake!" or "not being honest" to you while they are using fully edited jepg are 100% hypocrite and can be ignored.  Oh by the way I've removed tons of photo-bombers after PS has released the Beta AI feature.  I'm glad I didn't delete them before.

I shoot 100% raw all the time in any system.  There are a few images that could be ok without any editing, but very rare.  However, I spoke to a DPreview person who's very knowledgeable about digital images.  He said even raw image has been "put together" with some sort of basic coloring for "human" reference.  The real raw images are beyond terrible to human eyes, they are machine codes or some sort.

I think most people who own expensive fast lenses like Noct or Summilux could get really upset about this bokeh AI.  Because we can now achieve sharper subject yet compatible creamy bokeh without breaking the bank account.  Imagine F2.8 is the new Noct at 1/6 of the cost?

P.S. Let's see if there are more insulting posts against me.  lol 

[jaeger]

3 hours ago, Ecar said:

Expect a new sub-forum for CAI-compliant, unadulterated images soon...

Sure, in case you keep forgetting jpeg are fully edited by the processor inside your camera.  This sub-forum would be for... hypocrite only.

[Olaf_ZG]

21 hours ago, DrM said:

Well, depends on the focal length, subject distance.. https://www.photopills.com/calculators/dof 

 

28mm