M11 service problems: a sign of bigger underlying issues

[Stevejack]

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8 hours ago, Photojoejoe21 said:

Another update - received the camera back today. Top plate is still loose, like in the previous posted video.

Unbelievable. The amount of incompetency on display by the technicians working in the NJ repair facility is baffling.

I'm demanding a full refund at this point. I'd rather just buy a new one from some place like B&H where they will swap it out for you if there is an issue rather than having to go through Leica NJ repair.

TLDR; do yourself a favor and avoid the NJ repair facility. You will likely be perpetually disappointed.

Sorry to hear it still isn't fixed.

We're lucky here - In Australia we recently had an overhaul of our consumer laws, so if a camera has a fault and is under warranty the customer has a right to either repair, replacement or refund (the customer gets to choose). 

I had a small issue with the function button on my M11 (noticed it the first time I used it) and Leica Australia swapped the camera out for a new one (after receiving it back and confirming the issue), but I often hear where people receive a camera with an immediate fault and need to send it off for a repair which takes months which is really crazy. 

[Photojoejoe21]

52 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Sorry to hear it still isn't fixed.

We're lucky here - In Australia we recently had an overhaul of our consumer laws, so if a camera has a fault and is under warranty the customer has a right to either repair, replacement or refund (the customer gets to choose). 

I had a small issue with the function button on my M11 (noticed it the first time I used it) and Leica Australia swapped the camera out for a new one (after receiving it back and confirming the issue), but I often hear where people receive a camera with an immediate fault and need to send it off for a repair which takes months which is really crazy. 

Those sound like incredible consumer laws. I just looked it up. That is so cool. Good country for a camera owner to live in!! Yeah it's kinda nutty. The proof on this board too that it's kind of wide spread is even more nutty to me.

[Stevejack]

4 minutes ago, Photojoejoe21 said:

Those sound like incredible consumer laws. I just looked it up. That is so cool. Good country for a camera owner to live in!! Yeah it's kinda nutty. The proof on this board too that it's kind of wide spread is even more nutty to me.

The downside to these laws is that it's incumbent on the seller to make the customer happy. The seller then relies on dealing with the manufacturer to receive whatever compensation they can.

So you end up with a situation where you can have an awesome local store, which really wants to do right by their customers, but ends up taking the financial hit themselves rather than the manufacturer of the goods which is overseas and isn't operating under the same laws.

But yes - for the customer, the laws are great. Unfortunately it also means that stores end up charging more for goods imported and sold here because the seller need to take these things into account. 

[thighslapper]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:19 AM, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

Leica have now swapped my M11 for a new one. The only alternative was to send the camera back to Germany, for what would probably be another 5 months. They could see that that was unacceptable.  Here’s hoping the new one behaves better (the store assistant made an interesting remark in passing; she suggested that a 2023 manufactured M11 would be better than a 2022 one…).

Bit late in the day but the lens recognition issue isn't confined to the M11 ..... I had similar problems with one of my many digital M's (can't recall which) many years ago where if the lenses where used just clicked into place they would be recognised but by rotating them just a fraction beyond that, many wouldn't. Even that tiny amount of play caused a problem.  The actual sensor (IR) and coding is pretty rough and ready old school technology and quite easily fooled ..... as anyone who has tried self coding lenses will testify. I can't recall whether the camera was replaced or fixed, but in the early digital M days turnaround was reasonably quick ..... and a call to the ever helpful Mrs Frankl would chivvy things along if you were in a hurry. 

The digital M's are a bizarre mixture of cutting edge digital technology married with very primitive mechanical stuff that hasn't changed much, if at all, for decades. 

Edited January 5, 2024 by thighslapper

[Texan]

Recognizing that one camera does not make a pattern, my early M11 has passed 22,000 exposures with zero freezes, no deviant exposures, reads all lenses correctly, loves all SD cards fed to it, interfaces with FOTOS correctly and rapidly, no parts have fallen off. The resolution and quality images have put my Hasselblad H6D100c on standby.  Have owned many M cameras since my M3 double stroke and this is by far the best.  

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, Texan said:

Recognizing that one camera does not make a pattern, my early M11 has passed 22,000 exposures with zero freezes, no deviant exposures, reads all lenses correctly, loves all SD cards fed to it, interfaces with FOTOS correctly and rapidly, no parts have fallen off. The resolution and quality images have put my Hasselblad H6D100c on standby.  Have owned many M cameras since my M3 double stroke and this is by far the best.  

You should send it back!

[Fritz Fritz]

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3 hours ago, Texan said:

Recognizing that one camera does not make a pattern, my early M11 has passed 22,000 exposures with zero freezes, no deviant exposures, reads all lenses correctly, loves all SD cards fed to it, interfaces with FOTOS correctly and rapidly, no parts have fallen off. The resolution and quality images have put my Hasselblad H6D100c on standby.  Have owned many M cameras since my M3 double stroke and this is by far the best.  

It’s probably haunted then because no M11 can exist without issues. 

[elmars]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Texan:

Recognizing that one camera does not make a pattern, my early M11 has passed 22,000 exposures with zero freezes, no deviant exposures, reads all lenses correctly, loves all SD cards fed to it, interfaces with FOTOS correctly and rapidly, no parts have fallen off. The resolution and quality images have put my Hasselblad H6D100c on standby.  Have owned many M cameras since my M3 double stroke and this is by far the best.  

My early M11 has no problems too - except one overexposed photo from time to time. 

[ianforber]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:57 PM, Al Brown said:

You must have gotten one of three that were 100% in order. Lucky man.

Four. Mine has also seen no problems since I bought it the month after it came out. Of course, it does spend weeks at a time in the bag not doing anything!

[hmzimelka]

Likewise, my early M11 is a good one.

Let me rephrase, it was behaving perfectly on FW1.6.1 however, FW2.0.1 and FW2.0.2 both introduced new minor bugs that Leica are aware of. No freezing and no corruption. 

Not sure if it makes any difference, but my M11, like all of the models sold in Southern Africa, they don't have the 5Ghz WiFi chipset. It's the Leica M11 20 206 ( Black paint finish / Version ROW.) 

[Stef63]

Likewise, I've had my M11 for 2 years without any issues so far (knock on wood). I solely rely on internal storage and generally (except for FW updates) don't connect my phone. While I encountered some complaints with FW 2.0.1, it functioned per Leica's design at that time. However, post FW 2.0.2, everything seems to be working well for me.

Please note: I'm not implying there are no issues, and I strongly believe Leica should address them asap.

[Herr Barnack]

I do not have an M11 but am considering selling off some gear to finance the purchase of an M11-P.  I have waited to see if the freeze issues could be resolved. 

From what I can tell, it seems that people who have been plagued with M11 problems are users of live view and/or Leica FOTOS app using Bluetooth.  If I do get an M11-P, my strategy will be to not use either of these features, which will be no loss to me.

IMHO, both features should have worked 100% from the get-go.  To expect that from a $9000+ camera is well within reason.  I do appreciate the fact that Leica continues to work on de-kinking the M11 cameras.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[Steadimann]

I bought M11P  couple of months ago, i have no issues. If i take a picture and turn off camera immeditately, it can hang then, but other than that i see no issues. 

[Fritz Fritz]

Update from my previous post:

 

I sent my M11 to the Leica in New Jersey for repair (freezing, corrupt images) in November. I also sent them an SD card that has had corrupt images on it. Last week they called me saying they had it on their bench for the morning and couldn't reproduce any of my issues. Additionally, I was told that it's probably just a firmware issue (the issue they can't reproduce mind you). 

They sent the body and SD card back and I received it on Wednesday. Upon opening, I took 17 frames at my desk. This was using the same SD card they had. I had one freeze and one corrupt image. I'm wondering what testing they actually did. I've emailed Leica back but haven't received a response so far. Perhaps 2+ days to get a response is normal?

So I'm properly stuck with this camera now -- Leica proper can't fix it and won't replace it.

Buyer beware.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Fritz Fritz

[kiwidad]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:07 PM, Photojoejoe21 said:

Those sound like incredible consumer laws. I just looked it up. That is so cool. Good country for a camera owner to live in!! Yeah it's kinda nutty. The proof on this board too that it's kind of wide spread is even more nutty to me.

those laws also contribute to the much higher price for consumer goods in Australia! NZ has had similar laws for years and technologies crazy expensive there also

 

[la1402]

On 1/6/2024 at 4:57 PM, Al Brown said:

You must have gotten one of three that were 100% in order. Lucky man.

More than three - another one here. Mine is great if I consider the embedded Leica Look, aka Magenta Cast, as an undesirable feature instead of a fault 😉

Edited January 12, 2024 by la1402

[LukeTheHappy]

Hello all,

First of, I am happy to join the Leica Forum here & thank you for this opportunity to post my situation here. Currently I am not a Leica owner yet, but I am on the verge of selling almost all my current gear (Nikon and partially Fuji X system) to get into Leica M family and my original plan has been to purchase used M11 from an authorized reseller. I am working for a global tech company which has their HQ near the 'Foto Goerlitz' authorized reseller and during my next business trip to our HQ in Germany I was planning to buy one. But after reading lot of comments on the recent quality issues and also this thread, I am really becoming unsure about my original intent. Lot of people are reporting all kinds of issues with M11, mostly mechanical (rangefinder misalignment) and software related (freezing, long startup times, weird shutter release behaviors, overexposed or underexposed images) and these facts have started a process of reconsideration of my plans. TBH, initially I was planning to get any digital M and just two lenses. But when turned back, there was almost nothing to select from: M8 half frame, M9/M240 sensor corrosion/dead horizontal pixels issues, currently the issues of M11... So for me eventually only M10-R, M10-P seemed most 'safe' Ms to get. There is a major roadblock in my brain which I can hardly control and which is saying it's completely ridiculous to give up top-of-the-line Nikon and Fuji gear which never saw a service center over those almost 10 years to get one camera which - due to those several issues - may fail at the most unwanted moments. What I found interesting also is that while newest electronic models have quiet fast repair times at Wetzlar (few weeks), older mechanical Ms require repair times in the units of months so this leads me into conclusion that people who were building the brand over last decades and who were helping Leica to be understood as the showcase of world-class German engineering are simply gone while their knowledge and skills were transferred onto young people only partially. I can also see this in my country (Czechia) that more and more younger people are avoiding study of technical fields in our universities and they rather prefer human studies. For the company which mostly relies on golden hands, top of the notch hand made products and extraordinary mechanical perfection built by one's hands will be the lack of skilled mechanical engineers more and more critical. Anyway, I will travel to Foto Goerlitz to see what they have in stock now and hopefully they will be also able to openly discuss on these things and I will see if I bring home an M11 or M10R/P.

[ianforber]

4 hours ago, LukeTheHappy said:

Anyway, I will travel to Foto Goerlitz to see what they have in stock now and hopefully they will be also able to openly discuss on these things and I will see if I bring home an M11 or M10R/P.

Welcome to the forum! There’s a wealth of experience, opinions and a desire to help so I hope you’ll find what you want here. I too would worry about selling all your current camera equipment and devoting yourself to Leica but it depends whether you are a professional photographer or a hobbyist like me. My only cameras now are a Q2 and an M11. I’ve never had an issue with my M11 and it’s possible that there are many others like me, it’s just that they don’t need to say much of their camera is working fine. Sadly, that is not the case for many here who have had awful experiences with their cameras. 
 

Please let us know how you get on. Personally, I doubt there is much difference between a M10-R and a M11 aside from the baseplate/battery. Some people with extensive experience of the M system have commented about the different shutter sound and metering but I’ve never known anything else: I’ve had several people comment on how quiet the camera is and I like the sound. Only someone with their ear pressed up against the camera would notice anyway!

[gotium]

On 1/12/2024 at 7:23 AM, Fritz Fritz said:

Update from my previous post:

 

I sent my M11 to the Leica in New Jersey for repair (freezing, corrupt images) in November. I also sent them an SD card that has had corrupt images on it. Last week they called me saying they had it on their bench for the morning and couldn't reproduce any of my issues. Additionally, I was told that it's probably just a firmware issue (the issue they can't reproduce mind you). 

They sent the body and SD card back and I received it on Wednesday. Upon opening, I took 17 frames at my desk. This was using the same SD card they had. I had one freeze and one corrupt image. I'm wondering what testing they actually did. I've emailed Leica back but haven't received a response so far. Perhaps 2+ days to get a response is normal?

So I'm properly stuck with this camera now -- Leica proper can't fix it and won't replace it.

Buyer beware.

 I sympathize. Have been there. 

Edited January 14, 2024 by gotium

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[la1402]

7 hours ago, LukeTheHappy said:

Hello all,

First of, I am happy to join the Leica Forum here & thank you for this opportunity to post my situation here. Currently I am not a Leica owner yet, but I am on the verge of selling almost all my current gear (Nikon and partially Fuji X system) to get into Leica M family and my original plan has been to purchase used M11 from an authorized reseller. I am working for a global tech company which has their HQ near the 'Foto Goerlitz' authorized reseller and during my next business trip to our HQ in Germany I was planning to buy one. But after reading lot of comments on the recent quality issues and also this thread, I am really becoming unsure about my original intent. Lot of people are reporting all kinds of issues with M11, mostly mechanical (rangefinder misalignment) and software related (freezing, long startup times, weird shutter release behaviors, overexposed or underexposed images) and these facts have started a process of reconsideration of my plans. TBH, initially I was planning to get any digital M and just two lenses. But when turned back, there was almost nothing to select from: M8 half frame, M9/M240 sensor corrosion/dead horizontal pixels issues, currently the issues of M11... So for me eventually only M10-R, M10-P seemed most 'safe' Ms to get. There is a major roadblock in my brain which I can hardly control and which is saying it's completely ridiculous to give up top-of-the-line Nikon and Fuji gear which never saw a service center over those almost 10 years to get one camera which - due to those several issues - may fail at the most unwanted moments. What I found interesting also is that while newest electronic models have quiet fast repair times at Wetzlar (few weeks), older mechanical Ms require repair times in the units of months so this leads me into conclusion that people who were building the brand over last decades and who were helping Leica to be understood as the showcase of world-class German engineering are simply gone while their knowledge and skills were transferred onto young people only partially. I can also see this in my country (Czechia) that more and more younger people are avoiding study of technical fields in our universities and they rather prefer human studies. For the company which mostly relies on golden hands, top of the notch hand made products and extraordinary mechanical perfection built by one's hands will be the lack of skilled mechanical engineers more and more critical. Anyway, I will travel to Foto Goerlitz to see what they have in stock now and hopefully they will be also able to openly discuss on these things and I will see if I bring home an M11 or M10R/P.

I don’t know whether it makes sense to sell everything you have for an M as it depends what you use it for. I wouldn’t and most likely, it makes no sense as the M system is limited in many ways. But whether that is detrimental or helpful in focusing on “das Wesentliche” 🤪🫣😂 depends on you. 

Having said that, I believe the M11 is the best M in the market and well worth the premium over the others. 

You should definitely buy from a reputable dealer but as mentioned before, while Photo Görlitz managed to be very present in the German market, they are quite expensive, too.