SL2-S Noise

[PeterBoyadjian]

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ISO 25000 with AI Lightroom Reduction 

SL2S is a sleeper, beats any camera imo 

 

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[chrismuc]

14 hours ago, frame-it said:

why not do a test on the street at night in available light at ISO 5000++

yes 🙂

 

ok third attempt to upload that scene, mentioned before

Pana S1R + Sigma 17f4 @ ISO 4000

whole scene, crop at 100% with face w/ and w/o ACR AI denoise (in two posts ... the silly forum system doesn't allow in one)

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[chrismuc]

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[huwm]

confirms that NR for not for me 

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, chrismuc said:

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does it look blurry now? 

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

does it look blurry now? 

The face of the woman in the black dress who is in focus looks plastic. 

[Sohail]

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Took this with my iPhone handheld with a long exposure time. No denoising applied (beyond what the iPhone does in-camera). Impressed that it does a fairly decent job. I wonder how my SL2 would cope with the same scene. Will have a go and post. It's not a candlelight scenario -- dark but decently lit.

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Edited October 17, 2023 by Sohail

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The face of the woman in the black dress who is in focus looks plastic. 

The plastic look can sometimes be eliminated by adjusting the NR slider. 

[huwm]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The plastic look can sometimes be eliminated by adjusting the NR slider. 

as a hobbyist retiree life is way too short for all this ‘faffing’ about for marginal gains/losses

[Dr. G]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:08 PM, PeterBoyadjian said:

ISO 25000 with AI Lightroom Reduction 

SL2S is a sleeper, beats any camera imo 

 

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I agree - plus SL2-S, to me, is more than just a low light performer.  With the APO Summicron SL lenses it produces images that rival some higher MP cameras.  I used to have both the SL2 and SL2-S (full disclosure, I obviously wasn't using the most recent firmware versions on the SL2 since I sold it a while back) but the images from the SL2-S had a different look than the SL2.  The SL2, however, made stunning high contrast monochrome conversions with the APO Summicron SL lenses.  But the shadow detail recovery of the SL2-S is still one of my favorite things about it.

[jaapv]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:27 PM, Chaemono said:

The face of the woman in the black dress who is in focus looks plastic. 

That is a matter of pulling back a bit on the sliders. Topaz allows you to select the areas that need less denoising. Operator controlled in this case. One could also add a bit of grain on the face.  AI programs must be handled with user input and should not always be used globally. 

The best way to do this is to duplicate the layer with a layer mask, denoise  the top layer fully and use a brush at various intensities to deplastify where needed. AI is fine, but it is up to the skills of the user to get an optimal result. 

[algrove]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:06 AM, Sohail said:

Thanks. Yes, what I'm hearing. 

Thanks. Yes, what I'm hearing. Do you have any real images? I've looked quite a bit at the SL2-S thread -- not many in really challenging light conditions.

Suggest to really know, rent one and do side by sides for the weeks rental. If you REALLY like the SL2S some rental houses let you buy at a good price.

[Sohail]

 I finally got my hands on a loaned SL2-S. I've been re-reading the relevant Reid Reviews and testing it out in low-light conditions. My conclusion? Yes, it's slightly better but for my purposes very marginally so. At the most, it's supposed to give you a one-stop advantage. A non-scientific example at ISO 12,500 :

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A close up:

Edited January 4, 2024 by Sohail

[Sohail]

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SL2-S + 90 APO @ 10,000 IS0 f/8.0 + noise reduction in ACR

Edited January 7, 2024 by Sohail

[Stuart Richardson]

When you say a one stop advantage, do you mean to the SL2? I assume you mean scaling the SL2 down to 24mp too, right?

[Sohail]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

When you say a one stop advantage, do you mean to the SL2? I assume you mean scaling the SL2 down to 24mp too, right?

I didn't test scientifically. Only impressionistically. And yes to the SL2; roughly speaking a file at say 6400 ISO on an SL2 is comparable in noise to a file at 12,500 on the SL2-S. 

Edited January 8, 2024 by Sohail

[hansvons]

It‘s not only about noise, as it‘s highly subjective of what you can bare and why you may even like it. I dislike clean images as texture gives the eye something to hold on even if it’s out of focus. That’s why I only slightly denoise the noise's colour in my images. Others find noise untidy, a technical flaw, etc. and clean up their images completely.  
 

But more importantly, sensor sensitivity is about saturation and colour separation in the shadows. This can neither be downsampled nor AI-based reinvented. The juice in the shadows originates from the environment and the sensor‘s ability to capture these dark nuances. Larger pixels capture light quicker than smaller pixels and, thus, pick up more information in a given time. As technology moves on, generational advances will close that gap a bit. But all things equal in terms of technology, larger pixels remain better at picking up light more quickly.
 

But that doesn’t mean that the SL2-S sensor is better than the SL2‘s. The SL2‘s sensor resolves almost 4 times more detail. That is quite something and can be a distinct advantage. So is a higher sensitivity.

[Sohail]

7 hours ago, hansvons said:

It‘s not only about noise, as it‘s highly subjective of what you can bare and why you may even like it. I dislike clean images as texture gives the eye something to hold on even if it’s out of focus. That’s why I only slightly denoise the noise's colour in my images. Others find noise untidy, a technical flaw, etc. and clean up their images completely.  
 

But more importantly, sensor sensitivity is about saturation and colour separation in the shadows. This can neither be downsampled nor AI-based reinvented. The juice in the shadows originates from the environment and the sensor‘s ability to capture these dark nuances. Larger pixels capture light quicker than smaller pixels and, thus, pick up more information in a given time. As technology moves on, generational advances will close that gap a bit. But all things equal in terms of technology, larger pixels remain better at picking up light more quickly.
 

But that doesn’t mean that the SL2-S sensor is better than the SL2‘s. The SL2‘s sensor resolves almost 4 times more detail. That is quite something and can be a distinct advantage. So is a higher sensitivity.

Noise is of course objectively verifiable but yes it's a question of taste and how much we want to tolerate it or indeed celebrate it. I dislike synthetically clean images but also images in which it appears to be snowing or it reminds me of the static in TV screens from the 70s. Again, it's a matter of taste.  

For me, the SL2-S is a difficult investment to justify if you already, like me, have an SL2 and want it specifically for low-light scenarios. Effectively, it means gaining at the most one-stop for reduced resolution and the increased risk of moire. I'm not sure it's worth it. I need to test more and decide.

 

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[hansvons]

4 minutes ago, Sohail said:

For me, the SL2-S is a difficult investment to justify if you already, like me, have an SL2 and want it specifically for low-light scenarios.

There's no reason to drop a winning horse. I don't need the finer detail in my images; others do. And that would mean the SL2. Again, it is highly subjective. And that's why Leica offers two sensor options in its SL line. Unfortunately, you cannot have both. I'm certain that an SL3 won't resolve that contradiction. 

[Sohail]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

There's no reason to drop a winning horse. I don't need the finer detail in my images; others do. And that would mean the SL2. Again, it is highly subjective. And that's why Leica offers two sensor options in its SL line. Unfortunately, you cannot have both. I'm certain that an SL3 won't resolve that contradiction. 

TBH, I'm not yet convinced that they each have their comparable strengths. The SL2 is a vastly superior camera in most scenarios. The SL2-S is marginally better by one stop when you go beyond 6400 ISO. But you can still accomplish quite a bit at 6400 ISO with the SL2. And as I said I'm still undecided about the SL2-S's relative merits. I'll decide soon if I'll get one. And I agree—I don't think the SL3 will make a huge difference.

Edited January 8, 2024 by Sohail