Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[eudemian]

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If you step into a hornets nest you are likely to get stung, but what the hell.

 

I am thoroughly confused now, with different implemetations. different agenda's, straw polls.

 

Originally I supported Sean's suggestion basically because I wanted some way of changing EV and possibly ISO, my support was in principle to having a quick way to change these items. Now it seems we have a few more ideas in the melting pot.

 

What I would like to suggest is that we boil the alternatives down and then go about assessing their strengths and their popularity, and then, and only then can Leica see what M8 owners would like.

 

I feel I stepped into someone's turf war and I do not like it.

 

Tom

[hankg]

Sean conveniently ignores the need to dismiss any current image review before trying to change the ISO/EV/WB because the arrow and protect buttons used to initiate change have a defined function while an image is displayed.

 

So actually, just to be clear, the procedure to change the ISO or EV Sean is proposing is:

 

Touch the shutter release to cancel any review, just to be sure

Press one of the arrow buttons to select the function you want to change

Press another of the arrow buttons to make the change

Touch the shutter release to accept the change.

 

Four actions. If EV was your last change in the set menu, the procedure currently is:

 

Press SET to display the menu

Press SET to select the function you want to change

Press another of the arrow buttons to make the change

Press SET to accept the change

Touch the shutter release to close the menu.

 

Five actions. My proposal is:

 

Press and Hold SET (which is independent of an image being displayed)

Press the arrow for the function you want to change

 

Two actions.

 

Sean thought the button would be difficult to reach if the camera was at the eye, others objected that the two handed operation (though isn't that what assigning the Protect button to alternative use would require?) would be a problem even though it would guard against accidental change.

 

I guess the best news in all of this is that Leica seem rather unlikely to implement it but just to be safe, my proposal was on their desks on Friday and a version in German, which will also explain the flaws in Sean's scheme, will follow on Monday.

 

Here is Sean's proposal:

III. The arrow keys on the control wheel could also be used to provided direct access for at least two digital settings. My thoughts:

 

A. When the LCD display is off, pressing the left arrow key could bring up the EV compensation menu.

 

B. When the LCD display is off, pressing the right arrow key could bring up the ISO menu.

 

With either A or B, the value itself would then be selected using the up/down arrow keys and then the selection could be confirmed simply by lightly pressing the shutter release.

That would work just fine and only requires the thumb which is already in position. I'd be OK without the need for confirmation. I don't know any photographer who has the LCD display on when the camera is to his eye and when you depress the shutter to get exposure info it would shut off the display anyway. I'd like to see the ability to have the wheel control EV when in AP mode as well if you so choose and depressing the shutter in AV mode make the arrows live as Sean suggests with no need for confirmation after making a change. A simple one button method of reseting would keep you from getting lost (left hand could be used for that).

 

There may be other ways to implement this and I'm OK with any that let you accomplish the task without getting your hands out of position while you are framing the shot and preparing to fire. As this is a manual focus camera and your left hand must be on the lens - having to remove it to press a button will guarantee you miss the shot.

 

I don't think Leica is waiting for a consensus among the participants of this forum to be reached -they will implement this in whatever fashion they deem best. Assuming they think the feature is needed and if they are listening to professional photographers and photographers who use the camera intensively they will know that it is.

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[hankg]

 

I guess the best news in all of this is that Leica seem rather unlikely to implement it but just to be safe, my proposal was on their desks on Friday and a version in German, which will also explain the flaws in Sean's scheme, will follow on Monday.

 

 

Well I guess it's the best news if you don't have to use the camera to make images under pressure in fluid and changing conditions and if you don't depend on the camera for a living.

 

Let's hope your unhealthy obsession with anything and everything Sean Reid does, does not succeed in screwing up a needed improvement in the functionality of the camera. Does the forum have rules against stalking!

 

I don't much care whether Leica implements the functionality as proposed by Sean or some variation on it as long as it is doable with the thumb alone and it's optional so it doesn't upset those who don't need it.

[hankg]

I'd add one more thing. Leica should set up a testing ground like a auto companies testing grounds. Engineers tend to come up with solutions that look elegant to them and are wonderful on paper but are not really usable in practice.

 

Configure a couple of M8's with different solutions to this EV-ISO feature. Then have some engineers and photographers have to make 100 exposures of fast moving subjects in changing light conditions within a prescribed time. Repeat that a few times and see what solution delivers the most keepers in practice after being run through the obstacle course repeatedly.

[hankg]

I have designed a lot of user interfaces for online stores, web sites and various applications. It's always a humbling experience to see how your simple brilliant idea proves to be neither in the hands of real users.

[steve_l]

Yes, there are a lot of ways to do this.

But even more important is to do it at all....whatever happens, it won't please everyone.

Sean has Leica's ear, and his plan is quite workable

 

Also, and perhaps most important, Sean's plan is very similar to what Leica/Panasonic did on the Digilux 2, so they understand it and have tested it in practice, which should make it possible for them to implement it sooner rather than later. Sean and I - and probably many of you - owned a Digilux 2, and found this method to be easy and workable and foolproof in covering weddings, etc. where speed and accuracy are crucial.

[sean_reid]

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Not wishing to stir up things even more, but perhaps Sean could have opened up his ideas to discussion a bit more prior to his "survey". There are obviously some alternative ideas floating around which need to be looked at. Also it would be a great advantage if the greater majority of the M8 owners could present a unified blok towards Leica. At present, eventhough I voted yes, I am left with the fealing of "either you are for me or you are against me". I am sure that this is not Sean's intention. This is also not helped by the fact (which I do understand) that we aren't given all the info which Sean has gotten in his dealings with Leica due to an NDA or what ever. But precisely because the nature of his contact with Leica (which I assume are taken seriously by them) , I for one would appreciate more info and discussion and perhaps some more participation than a simple yes or no. As we all know , if at all possible, only one solution can be implemented.

 

Regards,

 

Etienne

 

Hi Etienne,

 

It wasn't a "survey", it was a survey and it had nothing to do with being with or against anyone. I can't disclose why I put a specific proposal up for discussion but it had nothing to do with pushing one point of view, etc. I regret that I can't explain further at this time.

 

What confuses this greatly, and what some do not realize, is that Mark has a personal agenda that began over a year ago with insults and attacks by e-mail, PM, etc. There is a whole dynamic here which has nothing at all to do with implementation of ISO/EV/WB. Some on the forum are well aware of this and some don't realize it at all. I'd love to be able to ignore it but it is so aggressive at times that it can really derail otherwise constructive discussion and potential M8 changes. Those who doubt this should start looking through the archives of forum posts.

 

It's exhausting. I've spoken with Andreas and the moderators about it but it still continues. So, under the guise of constructive and reasonable debate, there's a whole other thing going which has nothing to do with what might be helpful for M8 owners. Those who regret this seeming like a "turf war" can reread the threads involved and draw their own conclusions about it came to seem that way.

 

It takes two to be mugged, one to walk down the street and one to do the mugging.

 

If people are in no hurry to see anything implemented, by all means we can start from scratch and debate ideas for these features, submit them to Leica...and wait. The survey started at a different point in the process which is as much as I can say.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[stunsworth]

If people are in no hurry to see anything implemented, by all means we can start from scratch and debate ideas for these features, submit them to Leica...and wait.

 

I think the problem that some have is that there seems to be an attempt to stifle debate about how any proposed solution should work, rather it's a case of 'do it my way, or it won't get done at all'. I think just about everyone would agree that there are some aspects of the interface that could be improved, most noticeably those that you've identified.

 

Now I assume from the fact that you can't disclose some certain details that you've already partially sold the idea to Leica and you're wanting to get a lot of positive feedback so you can go back to them and show that it's a popular change. Nothing wrong in that IMHO.

[sean_reid]

I think the problem that some have is that there seems to be an attempt to stifle debate about how any proposed solution should work, rather it's a case of 'do it my way, or it won't get done at all'. I think just about everyone would agree that there are some aspects of the interface that could be improved, most noticeably those that you've identified.

 

Now I assume from the fact that you can't disclose some certain details that you've already partially sold the idea to Leica and you're wanting to get a lot of positive feedback so you can go back to them and show that it's a popular change. Nothing wrong in that IMHO.

 

Mark was successful in casting it in that light. "My way", "your way", etc. really had nothing to do with why I asked the forum if they would want to see a specific proposal implemented. People reading all this are going to have to think through what's going on here and draw their own conclusions.

 

Debate on this, by the way, was never stifled. I just asked that the survey thread remain a survey and that the discussion form a different thread. There are reasons for that which I can not discuss.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[stunsworth]

Sean, I don't want this to drag on into a long and boring semantic argument and I'm in no way 'getting' at you, but "If people are in no hurry to see anything implemented, by all means we can start from scratch" does seem to imply that if the proposed method isn't accepted then we'll have to wait a long time.

 

When is the M9 due out <grin>?

[argomazov]

Sean, I don't want this to drag on into a long and boring semantic argument and I'm in no way 'getting' at you, but "If people are in no hurry to see anything implemented, by all means we can start from scratch" does seem to imply that if the proposed method isn't accepted then we'll have to wait a long time.

 

When is the M9 due out <grin>?

 

Hi there.

 

Ok, I do NOT have any connections whatsoever with Leica (except for being a happy owner of an M8), and I have NO connections whatsoever with Sean Reid (except for being a happy subscriber to his reviews website), but I feel I just have to chime in with my PERSONAL interpretation of what is going on. It might be already evident to some, but possibly not.

 

It might be possible (please, note the tense and the adjective), that Leica liked Sean's proposal when he originally made it, which was on his original review of the M8 more than a year ago. It might be possible that they already went ahead and implemented it in a beta version of the firmware, and are just undecided if/when/how to introduce it to the general public.

 

So, with enough (gentle but vocal) push from us, current and prospective users, we might just get that new set of features in a very, very short time, which IMHO would be a very good thing.

 

Implementing other solutions would, as far as I can guess, take a much longer time, since it would have to be done from scratch.

 

So I reiterate my personal support for Sean's solution right now. After all, nobody would be forced to use Sean's "special mode", if they didn't like it.

 

After that has hopefully gone into production, I think we can always think about (clever/faster/better) alternatives and then ask Leica to implement them.

 

Cheers,

Luca

[dlw]

It is - but I feel it proves my point. I can't imagine Winogrand wanting to adjust WB and ISO without lowering the camera. He never holds it to his face for more than an instant(except in the shot where he's scratching his nose with it). He adjusts exposure and focus as he moves round so he's always ready for the shot - which he has identified before fluidly raising the camera and pressing the button.

 

I agree with you, but I also agree with Sean when he says (and I'm paraphrasing) that film and digital are a bit different, and this is one of those differences.

 

In the work I make my priority is to have a very consistent style of image, but I have this EV tool that I want to take advantage of so to control elements of the exposure - having quicker access to that seems like a nice thing precisely so I can fiddle as little with the camera as Winogrand.

 

In the video I linked to, there's a brief moment of looking at a Georgette Klinger awning and how it's reflecting a certain kind of light. I try to imagine what that would do with an M8 and I think: "adjust the EV down."

[giordano]

I agree with you, but I also agree with Sean when he says (and I'm paraphrasing) that film and digital are a bit different, and this is one of those differences.

 

In the work I make my priority is to have a very consistent style of image, but I have this EV tool that I want to take advantage of so to control elements of the exposure - having quicker access to that seems like a nice thing precisely so I can fiddle as little with the camera as Winogrand.

 

In the video I linked to, there's a brief moment of looking at a Georgette Klinger awning and how it's reflecting a certain kind of light. I try to imagine what that would do with an M8 and I think: "adjust the EV down."

 

Once again, when I expressed incredulity I was only talking about ISO and WB.

 

On rapid access to EV comp, I'm not arguing. It's pretty much essential if one wants to shoot 'fluidly' with a simple-minded AE system like the M8's.

[robertwright]

Being the OP I like to summarize:D

 

I have tried to do this a few times but they seem to be ignored in the toe-to-toe. There is not much point to this if we don't actually think about the ideas.

 

Hence, I began the thread with the idea that there were two kinds of EV comp, a global setting and another on the fly kind. What emerged from that was Av+Ev mode, with a Hot scroll wheel to quickly adjust Ev. I think a few people said they liked this. Please chime in if you like this. It does not affect the other proposals.

 

Second, after going around the mulberry bush I defined the differences between Sean's proposal and Mark's proposal. Both define a new input method-Sean's creates a hot arrow pad (all of this is optional!) where the left-right arrows choose the parameter and the up down keys increment/de-increment. You can press the set button to confirm, or, optionally press the shutter release to confirm.

 

point of interest: using the shutter button to confirm is a new mode. It is optional. If you wish the shutter button to always remain the "escape" button as it is now you can do that. Doing that however makes Sean's method a two handed method, because you would have to hit the set button with the left hand. Most people I think would opt for using the shutter button confirm because it is more elegant.

 

question: the proposal to use the shutter to confirm-is this a global preference or will it apply only to the hot arrow pad?

 

I think this is a very good workable scheme.

 

Mark's idea is also very elegant. It actually has many similarities to Sean's-he defines a new input mode-holding the set button down to bring up the speed menu. So right there there is no way this can be a one handed operation. I think this is a basic decision-do you want to move you hand off focus to get at this menu? Sean's method could be all one handed IF you allow for the shutter confirm change. Or it could be two handed if you don't.

 

Once you figure out that it makes it easier to pick a method. So while I don't like the idea of using the shutter to confirm since it is opposite the current scheme I can allow that to gain access to a one handed ISO/EV change it may be the best way. I feel if it is locked down to two hands it is not much better than the existing method, altho it is easier for sure.

 

As for remapping the protect button that was an option that you could use or ignore in either case. So I an agnostic about it.

 

As for Mark's point that users who have the review set to "hold" would need to dismiss the image before going on to the arrow keys it is a valid point. Any new modality should have an "impact assessment" done on it to see how it plays well with others.

 

I feel that the impact is minimal, when you are working quickly as these changes are designed for, having the camera set to review hold is probably not going to happen OR you would be back on the shutter for the next picture and the review would be dismissed. You would be taking a reading and then adjusting the Ev for example and confirming with the shutter. So the flow would always be shutter, arrow buttons, shutter, shoot. It is fluid in my opinion.

 

So my opinion (which is all I can give) is that the crux is do you want to involve the left hand, take it off focus and camera support? Once you decide this, the rest is elementary. I believe I would prefer to keep my hand on focus because I can rescue a poorly exposed picture but not an out of focus picture. I think it boils down to that.

[sean_reid]

Once again, when I expressed incredulity I was only talking about ISO and WB.

 

On rapid access to EV comp, I'm not arguing. It's pretty much essential if one wants to shoot 'fluidly' with a simple-minded AE system like the M8's.

 

Again, you may not vary ISO frequently yourself but its a very common technique for many professional photographers who work with small format digital. So, in essence, some work a bit differently than you may.

[sean_reid]

Being the OP I like to summarize:D

 

As for Mark's point that users who have the review set to "hold" would need to dismiss the image before going on to the arrow keys it is a valid point. Any new modality should have an "impact assessment" done on it to see how it plays well with others.

 

I feel that the impact is minimal, when you are working quickly as these changes are designed for, having the camera set to review hold is probably not going to happen OR you would be back on the shutter for the next picture and the review would be dismissed. You would be taking a reading and then adjusting the Ev for example and confirming with the shutter. So the flow would always be shutter, arrow buttons, shutter, shoot. It is fluid in my opinion.

 

So my opinion (which is all I can give) is that the crux is do you want to involve the left hand, take it off focus and camera support? Once you decide this, the rest is elementary. I believe I would prefer to keep my hand on focus because I can rescue a poorly exposed picture but not an out of focus picture. I think it boils down to that.

 

My own working flow is this. I sometimes have the review mode on and set to "hold" so that I can see a histogram, if needed, to tweak exposure. If I don't need to see a histogram, I always cancel the review image right away with a shutter press (I've done this for so long that I don't even think about it). If I need to see the histogram, I leave the display on long enough to see it and then I cancel the display with the shutter.

 

In either case (when I'm using review mode at all) I don't leave the review image on any longer than I need to because A) It wastes battery power and It's a distraction. So, when I go to change to EV or ISO, my screen is normally off.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

My own working flow is this. I sometimes have the review mode on and set to "hold" so that I can see a histogram, if needed, to tweak exposure. If I don't need to see a histogram, I always cancel the review image right away with a shutter press (I've done this for so long that I don't even think about it). If I need to see the histogram, I leave the display on long enough to see it and then I cancel the display with the shutter.

 

In either case (when I'm using review mode at all) I don't leave the review image on any longer than I need to because A) It wastes battery power and It's a distraction. So, when I go to change to EV or ISO, my screen is normally off.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

for future generations of M's: you have the review mode set to hold-histogram, you make an exposure, check the screen quickly, move to the arrow keys and increment-de-increment LIVE on the screen to see brighter darker of the image you just shot:p shutter accepts change for next picture.

[giordano]

Again, you may not vary ISO frequently yourself but its a very common technique for many professional photographers who work with small format digital. So, in essence, some work a bit differently than you may.

 

Hi Sean, I know that not everyone works the same, and wouldn't want it any other way, and in difficult light I frequently adjust ISO between shots or subjects.

 

But what made me incredulous was that people seemed to want to be able to adjust ISO and WB with the right hand alone without lowering the camera (and therefore without any visual feedback). Is that something you need for your work?

[hankg]

No matter how you have your preview set once you bring the camera to your eye and depress the shutter for exposure measurement everything is canceled out and you are in 'shooting mode'. And it's in shooting mode where we want access to real time controls.

 

To my mind this is something that happens when your have brought the camera to your eye and semi-depressed the shutter. You are now ready to fire and any adjustments that need to be made must happen without you having to detach from your subject, lose your focus and your shooting position -left hand controlling focus and supporting the camera and right hand ready to fire.

 

There may be several ways to do that but I think whatever the method it must be able to meet those requirements.

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[robertwright]

No matter how you have your preview set once you bring the camera to your eye and depress the shutter for exposure measurement everything is canceled out and you are in 'shooting mode'. And it's in shooting mode where we want access to real time controls.

 

To my mind this is something that happens when your have brought the camera to your eye and semi-depressed the shutter. You are now ready to fire and any adjustments that need to be made must happen without you having to detach from your subject, lose your focus and your shooting position -left hand controlling focus and supporting the camera and right hand ready to fire.

 

There may be several ways to do that but I think whatever the method it must be able to meet those requirements.

 

amen to that.