Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[marknorton]

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No Sean, I'm simply making an alternative proposal available to them in a timely manner just in case they think your own scheme has unanimous support among M8 photographers. Much as you want to bury negative comment in the original thread, it doesn't.

[marknorton]

Wrong. I have consistently said I support the new functions but not the specific implementation detail Sean is suggesting and I have instead proposed my cleaner, simpler, alternative to them to consider.

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[sean_reid]

No Sean, I'm simply making an alternative proposal available to them in a timely manner just in case they think your own scheme has unanimous support among M8 photographers. Much as you want to bury negative comment in the original thread, it doesn't.

 

That's very thoughtful of you. You think they're not able to read this forum to see how vociferously you're opposed to my idea? Unanimous? No, clearly yourself and two or three other people don't like the idea. But you underestimate Leica. They know what goes on here and they're not unaware of politics and soap operas no matter how many languages those might be conducted in. Some things are more transparent than you may realize.

[marknorton]

It seems likely my posts in the original thread will be removed in the morning, leaving your thread pristine.

 

In that case, Leica will clearly realise that your survey, poll, call it what you will, will have been rigged with dissenting opinion and the reasons given for it removed.

 

No, I don't underestimate Leica at all.

[sean_reid]

It seems likely my posts in the original thread will be removed in the morning, leaving your thread pristine.

 

In that case, Leica will clearly realise that your survey, poll, call it what you will, will have been rigged with dissenting opinion and the reasons given for it removed.

 

No, I don't underestimate Leica at all.

 

Actually, they know me far better than that.Your conspiracy theory is rather ironic given the reasons that survey was done. You're trying to skewer the wrong chicken and you don't even know it.

[marknorton]

I'm not insulting anyone, I'm simply saying I don't like the detailed implementation you have described and have proposed an alternative which I think is better.

 

It may well be that Leica originated the scheme I attribute to you and have asked you to float the ideas here to garner opinion. Doesn't matter and I don't care if Stephen K Lee himself dreamt it up in his bath, I still don't like it.

[marknorton]

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As I said on the other thread, Leica may well have asked you to solicit feedback on a development proposal. Doesn't matter who came up with it, I don't like it and, yes, I think mine is better.

[sean_reid]

Sean conveniently ignores the need to dismiss any current image review before trying to change the ISO/EV/WB because the arrow and protect buttons used to initiate change have a defined function while an image is displayed.

 

So actually, just to be clear, the procedure to change the ISO or EV Sean is proposing is:

 

Touch the shutter release to cancel any review, just to be sure

Press one of the arrow buttons to select the function you want to change

Press another of the arrow buttons to make the change

Touch the shutter release to accept the change.

 

 

No, the process is:

 

Press the right arrow for ISO or left arrow for EV

Press the up or down arrows to adjust

Press the set button or (optionally) the shutter release to lock in the setting

 

Your added step would only be needed if the photographer leaves the LCD on all the time. Again, most don't do that. It's not necessary to misrepresent what I've presented. For those who are interested, its described here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38672-survey-interest-faster-adjustments-iso-ev.html

[guywalder]

Your added step would only be needed if the photographer leaves the LCD on all the time. Again, most don't do that.

 

or uses auto review, or is changing a setting in response to looking at the lcd/histogram.

I really dont think you can generalise about how other people use their camera, read a few threads here and it quickly becomes clear that everyone uses their camera in a different way!

[giordano]

For me, what's being discussed are ways to make changes faster so to keep the camera available for taking pictures as much as possible. But it has to be balanced to some degree by error protection. For this reason, I think keeping changes to a two-handed operation might be a basic rule.

 

Agreed.

 

As I understand the proposed change, the left hand would hit the button and the right hand would make the selection change and confirmation. While this may seem to be a minor difference, it's actually quite an elegant improvement because it allows me to immediately get my left hand back where I want it while the right hand finishes the change.

 

Fair enough; but other people seem to be complaining about the time it would take to move the left hand from 'focus' position to reach the buttons.

 

As it happens, when the camera is in 'shoot' mode there are three buttons on the left that don't do anything: Delete, Protect and Info. Why not set up the firmware so that holding one of these buttons and using the wheel (or for those who prefer the up and down arrows) adjusts EV, WB and ISO respectively?

[giordano]

If you watch the video of Garry Winogrand posted here Index of /downloads/winogrand you get a good idea of what it's like to move very fluidly while taking pictures - it can be a real joy.

 

It is - but I feel it proves my point. I can't imagine Winogrand wanting to adjust WB and ISO without lowering the camera. He never holds it to his face for more than an instant(except in the shot where he's scratching his nose with it). He adjusts exposure and focus as he moves round so he's always ready for the shot - which he has identified before fluidly raising the camera and pressing the button.

[andybarton]

Good morning.

 

Overnight, on another thread, a discussion took place between two senior and highly respected members regarding methods of rapidly changing EVO, WB and other settings on the M8.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38672-survey-interest-faster-adjustments-iso-ev.html

 

A request for a tightly on-topic thread was made by Sean Reid to evaluate three proposals for

 

1. Exposure Compensation

2. ISO level

3. White Balance

 

In order to maintain the on-topicness of that thread, Mods have been asked to move alternative proposals to the ones suggested by Sean, to a separate thread. This I will do here.

 

Whilst we would not normally do this, in this case, I will make an exception, as Sean was very specific with his request to only have very narrowly focused, on-topic responses.

 

Mark Norton has proposed some alternative ideas for more rapid setting changes, which are, no doubt, equally valid (as a non M8 user, I cannot comment on the alternative choices personally, and make no judgement). These are collected here, having been moved out of Sean's original thread.

 

I am aware that there is already a thread along similar lines here, but Mark personally requested that his proposals are not just deleted, but moved to a new thread. I have moved all the posts which do not specifically relate to Sean's original post here.

 

I hope that this is a reasonable compromise, and that, in the fullness of time, M8 users can look forward to on-going improvements in the way in which they interact with their cameras.

 

Have a good Sunday, folks.

 

Now, somebody owes somebody a beer

 

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[andybarton]

How about merging this one with the OTHER alternative thread?

 

Mark - your call.

[marknorton]

Andy, thanks for that. I think it's worth merging the two threads, if Robert is happy, into a single "alternative" thread. It may appear disjointed but will provide some sort of narrative of the alternate thinking.

[robertwright]

well I am back and not drunk!

 

but it seems others here have been having a grand old time!

 

there are flaws in both proposals to be sure. nothing is perfect. I stated my concern before about Seans proposal, that you have symmetrical inputs for related values, so it can be confusing. But this is also the same weakness that Mark's idea has, less symmetrical but basically it requires one in both cases to remember which is which. I can see that as confusing sometimes. But with practice, it could become second nature. So as far as inputs go they are equal.

 

activation is the other difference. Sean's activation is an arrow key press, Mark's is press and hold the set button. My concern with Mark's idea is that it takes the hand away from the lens and I would rather keep it on the focus tab. so that is a minus for me. The minus in Seans case is that if auto review is set to "hold" you would need to dismiss the image before going to the arrow keys. I think it is important to consider how the changes would play nice or not with the camera functions as they are, so this is a consideration. However, thinking about it, I do use the shutter button to dismiss the playback image, so having to tap the shutter first in this minority case does not seem to me to be unusual.

 

The other part of Mark's proposal that concerns me is that it requires you to release the set button to confirm the change. Obviously to take the next picture you are going to do that, your hand has to go back to the focus position. But now you have two ways to confirm input, BOTH using the set button, push AND release. this is inconsistent. So as much as I like how Mark's idea works with the arrow keys, which I think is neater, the fact that it requires you moving your hand off the focus tab is not going to work for me and the fact that it alters the selection process to the opposite of what you normally do to me is not so good.

 

Neither is perfect, but I think on balance I like sean's better. Focus is king.

 

Programming the protect button is a whole other story, I'm agnostic about.

[robertwright]

Andy, thanks for that. I think it's worth merging the two threads, if Robert is happy, into a single "alternative" thread. It may appear disjointed but will provide some sort of narrative of the alternate thinking.

 

I'm always happy:D

[andybarton]

I'm always happy:D

 

So long as as someone is!

 

 

I'll merge now... (It's a bit of a mess at the beginning, but I hope that the gist of the proposals are clear)

[etienne_werner]

Not wishing to stir up things even more, but perhaps Sean could have opened up his ideas to discussion a bit more prior to his "survey". There are obviously some alternative ideas floating around which need to be looked at. Also it would be a great advantage if the greater majority of the M8 owners could present a unified blok towards Leica. At present, eventhough I voted yes, I am left with the fealing of "either you are for me or you are against me". I am sure that this is not Sean's intention. This is also not helped by the fact (which I do understand) that we aren't given all the info which Sean has gotten in his dealings with Leica due to an NDA or what ever. But precisely because the nature of his contact with Leica (which I assume are taken seriously by them) , I for one would appreciate more info and discussion and perhaps some more participation than a simple yes or no. As we all know , if at all possible, only one solution can be implemented.

 

Regards,

 

Etienne

[guywalder]

Robert, In Sean's proposal there are also 2 ways of confirming settings, the 'normal' one of using the set key, and the 'new' one of tapping the shutter release. On the current M8, tapping the shutter release specifically does not lock in any provisionally changed settings, so to now program a new mode in which it does is IMHO a bad idea. Using the set key as currently to confirm changes made via Sean's proposal makes more sense and reduces the risk of unintended setting changes.

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[wattsy]

Personally, I almost always use the M8 using the manual controls and have never felt the need to access the EV compensation menu (I make all my adustments using the shutter speed dial and/or aperture control). As for ISO, I don't find the present arrangement particularly onerous (though it would be nice if there was a small LCD on the top plate displaying the currently selected value). As such, I haven't felt the need to join the chorus on Sean's thread. Having said this, I think it is clear that Mark's option is a much more elegant solution to the 'problem' (albeit involving a change in the user interface from pressing to releasing the SET button in order to change a value).