Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[giordano]

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does it worry anyone to change the shutter button to confirm from escape as I mentioned above.

 

It worries me, because on the D200 (and I guess other Nikons) it escapes and because I'd rather have an explicit 'confirm' step.

 

But what do I know? I find it impossible to imagine anyone working so fast and furiously in such violently changing light they need look through the viewfinder while changing WB or ISO with one hand and focusing with the other - especially on a camera that doesn't have a proper readout in the viewfinder.

 

MPP ... sunny f/16 ... men were men and ten double dark slides lasted all day ... goes off muttering ... (sorry, Lars)

[dlw]

maybe we don't need to zero the Ev with a button setting, but make it so that any turn of the scroll wheel lights the screen and displays the value you are at.

 

This is the way "set" works now and what's nice about it's current behavior is that one press of "set" gives you a presentation of your settings and a half-press of the shutter release clears it. This has worked well for me so far.

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[sean_reid]

I

But what do I know? I find it impossible to imagine anyone working so fast and furiously in such violently changing light they need look through the viewfinder while changing...ISO with one hand and focusing with the other - especially on a camera that doesn't have a proper readout in the viewfinder.

 

Come with me to shoot a wedding with existing light and you won't have to imagine it. Or spend a day with a PJ who needs to follow a moving story in and out of buildings. That doesn't mean you need that speed but there are a lot of out there and we don't all have the same needs or working styles. Can you envision changing aperture while your eye is to the finder? ISO, for some of us, is now much the same. The Leica M was always a very fast camera. ISO, for many of us, is part of that speed. Film is film, this is a slightly different medium.

 

And, BTW, for me it was six holders (12 sheets of Tri-X in wooden and some fancy new plastic ones) with one Wista and one lens. But contrary to mythology, that sparseness doesn't necessarily make one's work better. I've had good days making just four exposures with a view camera and good days making 1000...and bad for both as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[dlw]

It worries me, because on the D200 (and I guess other Nikons) it escapes and because I'd rather have an explicit 'confirm' step.

 

But what do I know? I find it impossible to imagine anyone working so fast and furiously in such violently changing light they need look through the viewfinder while changing WB or ISO with one hand and focusing with the other - especially on a camera that doesn't have a proper readout in the viewfinder.

 

MPP ... sunny f/16 ... men were men and ten double dark slides lasted all day ... goes off muttering ... (sorry, Lars)

 

I see your point, but a good example is illustrated in the thread on shooting the space shuttle. As the sun came up the photographer moved the EV down in increments of a third to compensate for the increasing brightness.

[sean_reid]

This is the way "set" works now and what's nice about it's current behavior is that one press of "set" gives you a presentation of your settings and a half-press of the shutter release clears it. This has worked well for me so far.

 

Allowing the shutter release press to confirm settings would be, as I wrote in 9/06, an option for the photographer. He or she needn't set the camera to work that way. I would but some might not.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[dlw]

Allowing the shutter release press to confirm settings would be, as I wrote in 9/06, an option for the photographer. He or she needn't set the camera to work that way. I would but some might not.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I'm a little confused then, are you proposing a global change of the function of the half-press versus "set" to confirm a change? Perhaps I didn't read things carefully enough, but I thought both would work.

 

Current behavior is with the LCD off, pressing set will bring up the setting status and pressing the shutter release will turn off the LCD. I didn't imagine your proposal would modify that behavior at all.

 

My response was in context to Robert's longer post, so maybe it's the edit of the thread that's confusing . . .

[hankg]

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It worries me, because on the D200 (and I guess other Nikons) it escapes and because I'd rather have an explicit 'confirm' step.

 

But what do I know? I find it impossible to imagine anyone working so fast and furiously in such violently changing light they need look through the viewfinder while changing WB or ISO with one hand and focusing with the other - especially on a camera that doesn't have a proper readout in the viewfinder.

 

MPP ... sunny f/16 ... men were men and ten double dark slides lasted all day ... goes off muttering ... (sorry, Lars)

 

A not uncommon situation: You have a situation where there is a strong directional light and large contrast between different areas from a large sunny window or some bright lights and have no control over the light. You are going to shoot a few frames but you have a subject moving in and out of the light or as you move your subject is alternately backlit, sidelit.

 

I might have taken a reading and know my 'base' shutterspeed for the interior ambient. The light is not really changing but my changing framing, position or the subject moving is requiring me to open up a stop or close down as the AV is from some positions being fooled by the scene. I can see the shutterspeed in the display moving as I click the wheel and I know my 'neutral' position. The advantage over just using the shutterspeed on manual is I can get continuous monitoring of different areas by the meter and use that setting or goose it one way or the other with EV. Once I've completed the series of frames or while I'm shooting I zero out to get back to my preset.

 

This is not some outlandish unusual circumstances it's just photography 101.

[sean_reid]

I'm a little confused then, are you proposing a global change of the function of the half-press versus "set" to confirm a change? Perhaps I didn't read things carefully enough, but I thought both would work.

 

Current behavior is with the LCD off, pressing set will bring up the setting status and pressing the shutter release will turn off the LCD. I didn't imagine your proposal would modify that behavior at all.

 

My response was in context to Robert's longer post, so maybe it's the edit of the thread that's confusing . . .

 

Have you read the description of the proposed change? It's here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38672-survey-interest-faster-adjustments-iso-ev.html

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[dlw]

Have you read the description of the proposed change? It's here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38672-survey-interest-faster-adjustments-iso-ev.html

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Yes, I have. My post was in regards to Robert's ideas about using the arrow key to bring up the current setting - your described changes don't appear to alter that behavior.

[giordano]

A not uncommon situation: You have a situation where there is a strong directional light and large contrast between different areas from a large sunny window or some bright lights and have no control over the light. You are going to shoot a few frames but you have a subject moving in and out of the light or as you move your subject is alternately backlit, sidelit.

 

I might have taken a reading and know my 'base' shutterspeed for the interior ambient. The light is not really changing but my changing framing, position or the subject moving is requiring me to open up a stop or close down as the AV is from some positions being fooled by the scene. I can see the shutterspeed in the display moving as I click the wheel and I know my 'neutral' position. The advantage over just using the shutterspeed on manual is I can get continuous monitoring of different areas by the meter and use that setting or goose it one way or the other with EV. Once I've completed the series of frames or while I'm shooting I zero out to get back to my preset.

 

This is not some outlandish unusual circumstances it's just photography 101.

 

One of us is missing the point. You describe adjusting EV compensation (and on that I agree with you), but I deliberately only mentioned ISO and WB.

 

Is it really important to be able to change ISO or WB in two seconds rather than four?

[dlw]

One of us is missing the point. You describe adjusting EV compensation (and on that I agree with you), but I deliberately only mentioned ISO and WB.

 

Is it really important to be able to change ISO or WB in two seconds rather than four?

 

I think the point some people are making is that sometimes it's preferable to adjust ISO and sometimes EV. Or for some people they would prefer to adjust EV instead of ISO, whereas others will tend to stick to one ISO and adjust EV to pick up a stop.

 

It's not really an either/or situation, it's a series of choices based on what you want the final product to be.

 

For me, what's being discussed are ways to make changes faster so to keep the camera available for taking pictures as much as possible. But it has to be balanced to some degree by error protection. For this reason, I think keeping changes to a two-handed operation might be a basic rule.

 

As I understand the proposed change, the left hand would hit the button and the right hand would make the selection change and confirmation. While this may seem to be a minor difference, it's actually quite an elegant improvement because it allows me to immediately get my left hand back where I want it while the right hand finishes the change.

 

If you watch the video of Garry Winogrand posted here Index of /downloads/winogrand you get a good idea of what it's like to move very fluidly while taking pictures - it can be a real joy.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Just casual observation i think what this thread should do is split into two. One for ISO and one for EV they are really two separate functions of shooting , even though tied together by marriage. I think it gets confusing and there are two different sets to do each one. Given any shooting job as Sean has mentioned he has to switch ISO on the fly and EV is more for compensating for the A mode override at any given ISO. Two very separate functions, even though you could use EV to open a stop it really is not normal to do that you would just change ISO instead to match a overall lighting scheme. Just a thought, it may keep it more organized and less confusing

[hankg]

One of us is missing the point. You describe adjusting EV compensation (and on that I agree with you), but I deliberately only mentioned ISO and WB.

 

Is it really important to be able to change ISO or WB in two seconds rather than four?

 

ISO yes, WB no. When working in lower light situations I often find to my horror as I'm about to squeeze off a shot that the shutter speed is probably going to make the shot unusable. 2 clicks on the ISO and your good to go. That would be nice.

[sean_reid]

 

Is it really important to be able to change ISO or WB in two seconds rather than four?

 

For some photographers and for ISO, absolutely yes.

[robertwright]

Allowing the shutter release press to confirm settings would be, as I wrote in 9/06, an option for the photographer. He or she needn't set the camera to work that way. I would but some might not.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

so in your implementation of changes there is a menu item "use shutter to confirm changes" yes/no.

 

then there would be another one "speed ISO/EV menu with buttons" on/off or something like that.

 

edit, sorry, asked and answered.

[sean_reid]

so in your implementation of changes there is a menu item "use shutter to confirm changes" yes/no.

 

then there would be another one "speed ISO/EV menu with buttons" on/off or something like that.

 

edit, sorry, asked and answered.

 

That's OK, I can answer again. Yes, your summary is correct and default settings would be "off" for both.

 

One could also set the "protect" button to - protect (default) or WB or ISO or EV

 

People who find the M8 functions perfect as is need not change anything.

 

If we had a clean slate, there would be even better ways to implement ISO, etc. But, as it stands, we have only the firmware options to work with. In the survey thread, I'm trying to see if there's interest in these added options which Leica and I have been discussing (and otherwise) since last fall.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

since I started this thread it is mine to sum up:D

 

I think for me I am satisfied with having thought out for myself and with the help of others how the proposed changes would work and add to the functionality of the camera. the thread for me has served the function of being at that roundtable where all this was discussed before. I hope it has for others too, and I thank Sean for his patience as I tried to find my own way to solve the issue. I think the majority of votes in the other thread are for the changes, and after having gone around the mulberry bush with this I can vote also that it is a good proposal.

 

I think one addition we discovered here was the Av+Ev mode idea, using the scroll wheel "hot". This is something I would like to see very much.

 

Going out to make sure all the wine in the area is up to snuff! thanks all!

[sean_reid]

since I started this thread it is mine to sum up:D

 

I think for me I am satisfied with having thought out for myself and with the help of others how the proposed changes would work and add to the functionality of the camera. the thread for me has served the function of being at that roundtable where all this was discussed before. I hope it has for others too, and I thank Sean for his patience as I tried to find my own way to solve the issue. I think the majority of votes in the other thread are for the changes, and after having gone around the mulberry bush with this I can vote also that it is a good proposal.

 

I think one addition we discovered here was the Av+Ev mode idea, using the scroll wheel "hot". This is something I would like to see very much.

 

Going out to make sure all the wine in the area is up to snuff! thanks all!

 

*All* the wine. You're ambitious. <G> I'm here in the studio testing lenses because I have only a short loan of the Summarits. I think I want your evening.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Sean conveniently ignores the need to dismiss any current image review before trying to change the ISO/EV/WB because the arrow and protect buttons used to initiate change have a defined function while an image is displayed.

 

So actually, just to be clear, the procedure to change the ISO or EV Sean is proposing is:

 

Touch the shutter release to cancel any review, just to be sure

Press one of the arrow buttons to select the function you want to change

Press another of the arrow buttons to make the change

Touch the shutter release to accept the change.

 

Four actions. If EV was your last change in the set menu, the procedure currently is:

 

Press SET to display the menu

Press SET to select the function you want to change

Press another of the arrow buttons to make the change

Press SET to accept the change

Touch the shutter release to close the menu.

 

Five actions. My proposal is:

 

Press and Hold SET (which is independent of an image being displayed)

Press the arrow for the function you want to change

 

Two actions.

 

Sean thought the button would be difficult to reach if the camera was at the eye, others objected that the two handed operation (though isn't that what assigning the Protect button to alternative use would require?) would be a problem even though it would guard against accidental change.

 

I guess the best news in all of this is that Leica seem rather unlikely to implement it but just to be safe, my proposal was on their desks on Friday and a version in German, which will also explain the flaws in Sean's scheme, will follow on Monday.

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Look here: Leica M

[sean_reid]

The first step you've added only applies if one is walking around photographing with the review image left on. You may choose to work that way but I don't think most do. For many photographers, the LCD is mostly off when they're working. So, that first step need only be added for people who leave the LCD on all the time.

 

As for your proposals to Leica, I expected no less. You made every effort to interfere with the lens selection menu proposal as well and I'm sure that you'll do your best to try to ruin this as well.

 

Lastly, you have no idea what Leica is likely to implement, what previous discussions have been, etc. You regularly pretend to knowledge of Leica that you simply do not have.