How do you carry film through airports today?

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[Anbaric]

13 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

4. Sometimes we can buy film locally depending on where you are going - consider researching

I think that should really be Plan A. Film is still available in major cities throughout the developed world, and can probably be delivered to your hotel room within 24 hours of placing an order by Amazon or whoever. If the UK is anything to go by, you'll probably have less choice with colour than you do with B&W, and you'll have to pay premium prices for colour - think Portra or some consumer film that now costs nearly as much as Portra. But that may still be cheaper than having your film fried at the airport. The other thing to research is whether there is a reliable processor that will get your developed negatives back to you before you leave, or perhaps a local mail-order processor that will return them to your country of origin. In cities like London you can still get 1 hr C41, or same-day B&W/E6.

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17 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I think that should really be Plan A. Film is still available in major cities throughout the developed world, and can probably be delivered to your hotel room within 24 hours of placing an order by Amazon or whoever. If the UK is anything to go by, you'll probably have less choice with colour than you do with B&W, and you'll have to pay premium prices for colour - think Portra or some consumer film that now costs nearly as much as Portra. But that may still be cheaper than having your film fried at the airport. The other thing to research is whether there is a reliable processor that will get your developed negatives back to you before you leave, or perhaps a local mail-order processor that will return them to your country of origin. In cities like London you can still get 1 hr C41, or same-day B&W/E6.

that's exactly what i always do, buy/shoot/develop film at the place im visiting.

[grahamc]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Most of that text (including all the stuff about testing by a now long-defunct company) hasn't changed in at least 17 years - see my post above and compare:

https://tiffen.com/products/domke-filmguard-xray-guard-bag

https://web.archive.org/web/20060328130627/http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct.html?tablename=domke&itemnum=711-12B

I suppose modern carry-on CT scanners might expose the film to a lower dose than the old checked baggage CT scanners, because they have to be used in passenger areas and are newer designs, but that's really just a guess. They certainly expose the film to a much higher dose than the 'film safe' carry-on scanners that were the standard when these tests were conducted, and since there are at least half a dozen different models and settings may vary, I don't think we can generalise from testing a single roll without a control roll of the same type at one airport, as Carmencita seem to have done (maybe they've done more extensive testing since that report).

Yes, I am making the assumption that the “higher dose X-ray” that Domke refer to for checked luggage X-ray now applies to CT (hand luggage) checks.  Whilst we don’t know they are exactly the same kind of “high dose”, they must be much higher dose than old/standard hand baggage scanner.... since a) with new scanners we don’t have to remove laptops, liquids , etc and b) Kodak tests show they can ruin our film with one pass but they said no such thing about the older scanners (in fact despite recommending to avoid if possible , they said that film wouldn’t degrade until passed through 8-10 times )

I realise the stiffen/Domke info is old but it’s easy to see the manufacturer reached the conclusion that the bags are tested as safe only for the old/standard (low dosage) machines, and up to 800 ISO.  These machines that have been around far longer than 17 years and are still in most airports.   

These are all personal choices for us to make based on the info available but on the basis of my own research and forming an opinion (it is only that) I wouldn’t be putting my film through a CT scanner under any circumstances if I can possibly avoid.  The fact that Heathrow will grant hand inspection of film (any ISO) at a CT scanner is also pretty conclusive to me, since they are infamous for forcing film to travel through the older machines. 
 

The only difference in our position seems to be that you prefer to buy (and maybe develop?) film at destination whilst I am happy to carry film and develop at home (on the basis it’s very unlikely it will be forced to pass it through a CT machine).   Not impossible of course  , but in recent experience of travelling through 20-30 airports in the last year I’m happy at this point to say “very unlikely”.    An occasional pass through the old low dosage scanner in a Domke bag doesn’t bother me in the slightest. 
 

Again all personal choices to make our own preferred position but mine is also in part due to a well known London lab losing some important negatives (exhibition material) of mine last year when I was visiting there, as well as having had some other negatives posted back by a lab that never made it home in the post.  
 

So overall, after much research and especially after having had no issues travelling with film I’m comfortable with this way at the moment.     If you can abide by the hassle and risks of buying / developing on the trip then that’s a good way too but isn’t without its own risks.  

Edited August 5, 2023 by grahamc

[davidmknoble]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

I think that should really be Plan A. Film is still available in major cities throughout the developed world, and can probably be delivered to your hotel room within 24 hours of placing an order by Amazon or whoever. If the UK is anything to go by, you'll probably have less choice with colour than you do with B&W, and you'll have to pay premium prices for colour - think Portra or some consumer film that now costs nearly as much as Portra. But that may still be cheaper than having your film fried at the airport. The other thing to research is whether there is a reliable processor that will get your developed negatives back to you before you leave, or perhaps a local mail-order processor that will return them to your country of origin. In cities like London you can still get 1 hr C41, or same-day B&W/E6.

That works many places - but won’t work when I go to Antarctica. It will just be too remote.  I’m taking fairly slow ASA film, and as others have said, I am super polite and pleasant and they are correct, it goes a long way.  I’ll use the Domke bags and ask for a hand check, but if they say ‘no’ there isn’t much I can do.

I did find a monobath single solution developer / fixer in powder form today.  Might give that a shot.  Could be easier to develop film remotely.  Standard development is 70-80 degrees F.  Interesting, but never given it a shot.  That would prevent the scanning after exposure.

Great thoughts here and things to consider.

[nitroplait]

10 hours ago, thrid said:

Ok, I'll take you're word for it, but that was the story for the last 20 plus years.

But what do you do when security makes you take the film out of the x-ray proof bag and send it though the machine, again?

The problem is all of the 'what if's?"

Because once you're in line at security you're not backing out and are stuck with whatever cards you're dealt.

 

Yes, that is the repetition that makes a myth. Repetition does not make a truth. 

You don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of operator manuals from the X-ray machine manufactures homepages you can read if you want information from a primary source.

I have never experienced security sending film back. They may pull your hand luggage out for hand inspection to see what is in the lead bag. (tip: keep your lead bag outside your hand luggage to make this situation faster). 

If you have to let it scan without protection, you can just relax. Your film will not be harmed by a single pass - it is the accumulated radiation from multiple passes that damages the film.

CT scanning is another matter. But as noted. I have yet to experience an airport with CT scanners that doesn't offer hand check of film.

If you plan a trip it is fairly easy to send a mail to the relevant airports to ask if they use CT scanners and if they allow hand inspection of film - but check their homepage first - some airports already address this matter for concerned photographers.

Consulting the airport (or any source) directly is more reliable than consulting an online forum where you mostly hear opinions - not facts.

[Anbaric]

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7 hours ago, grahamc said:

The only difference in our position seems to be that you prefer to buy (and maybe develop?) film at destination whilst I am happy to carry film and develop at home (on the basis it’s very unlikely it will be forced to pass it through a CT machine).   Not impossible of course  , but in recent experience of travelling through 20-30 airports in the last year I’m happy at this point to say “very unlikely”.    An occasional pass through the old low dosage scanner in a Domke bag doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

I would say developing at the destination is more important than buying film locally. If your film gets CT-scanned on the way there, you can always chuck it out and all you've lost is money (or maybe access to your favourite film on that trip). If it gets CT-scanned on the way back, you may lose your images. In this situation, the Domke bag would be worth a shot if you are refused a hand inspection. And refusal does happen. I'd hope this is rare if the staff are properly trained and there's not a security situation that might make them stricter.

[grahamc]

By the way, last year I forgot to pull out an (unused) roll of TX400 before my hand baggage went through a CT scanner .  So I shot it and developed it at home for fun.  Sure enough it was absolutely awful (no banding , but very foggy and poor quality).  I doubt this surprises anyone but worth a mention. 

[thrid]

8 hours ago, nitroplait said:

 

If you have to let it scan without protection, you can just relax. Your film will not be harmed by a single pass - it is the accumulated radiation from multiple passes that damages the film.

Depends on film speed. In my personal experience something like Delta3200 will be fried by a single pass through any machine. I have also seen my Tri-X damaged by multiple passes, when flying long-distance to the US with a stop over.

 

8 hours ago, nitroplait said:

CT scanning is another matter. But as noted. I have yet to experience an airport with CT scanners that doesn't offer hand check of film.

If you plan a trip it is fairly easy to send a mail to the relevant airports to ask if they use CT scanners and if they allow hand inspection of film - but check their homepage first - some airports already address this matter for concerned photographers.

Consulting the airport (or any source) directly is more reliable than consulting an online forum where you mostly hear opinions - not facts.

Given the amount of international traveling that I have done emailing ahead etc sounds good in theory, but not very practical in real life given language barriers, bureaucratic indifference and out of date information on websites.

What this whole thread it boils down to is that anytime you take film through security that involves an x-ray machine you are running the risk of having your film damaged.

The main problem is that security is for the most part a one way street.
Once you're in line and discover that it's a CT scanner after all you're out of luck.
Once you're in line and are refused a hand inspection because security is having a bad day, you don't speak the language, they don't like your face or it's super busy you are out of luck.

You can let your imagination run wild and add a few more scenarios.

Unless you are clairvoyant you are not going to be able to predict the unforeseen variables you will encounter in the future. If you exclude death and taxes the future has no predictable facts, only opinions.
 

Which leaves you with a limited set of options to guarantee that your film will not be damaged:

Only fly with film in countries where you know you are legally entitled to a hand inspection and are able to speak the language to communicate with the security personnel. 

Purchase your film at the destination.

Develop your film before you depart.
 

That's it. it's that simple.

In any other scenario you run the risk of your film potentially being damaged. 

Personally I now shoot a mix of film and digital.

Unless I'm flying domestic in the US I purchase film at my destination and have it developed or do it myself in the hotel bathroom. 

 

[nitroplait]

2 hours ago, thrid said:

Depends on film speed. In my personal experience something like Delta3200 will be fried by a single pass through any machine. I have also seen my Tri-X damaged by multiple passes, when flying long-distance to the US with a stop over.

 

Given the amount of international traveling that I have done emailing ahead etc sounds good in theory, but not very practical in real life given language barriers, bureaucratic indifference and out of date information on websites.

What this whole thread it boils down to is that anytime you take film through security that involves an x-ray machine you are running the risk of having your film damaged.

The main problem is that security is for the most part a one way street.
Once you're in line and discover that it's a CT scanner after all you're out of luck.
Once you're in line and are refused a hand inspection because security is having a bad day, you don't speak the language, they don't like your face or it's super busy you are out of luck.

You can let your imagination run wild and add a few more scenarios.

Unless you are clairvoyant you are not going to be able to predict the unforeseen variables you will encounter in the future. If you exclude death and taxes the future has no predictable facts, only opinions.
 

Which leaves you with a limited set of options to guarantee that your film will not be damaged:

Only fly with film in countries where you know you are legally entitled to a hand inspection and are able to speak the language to communicate with the security personnel. 

Purchase your film at the destination.

Develop your film before you depart.
 

That's it. it's that simple.

In any other scenario you run the risk of your film potentially being damaged. 

Personally I now shoot a mix of film and digital.

Unless I'm flying domestic in the US I purchase film at my destination and have it developed or do it myself in the hotel bathroom. 

 

Which international airport does not communicate in English? 
And if local, it is rather unlikely that they have CT scanners.

There is nothing new in the current X-ray situation. It has been like this for 20+ years.

If one must use exotic film, by all means take the necessary precautions (or a novel idea: digital).

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by nitroplait

[Surge]

On 8/4/2023 at 6:00 PM, grahamc said:

Low-dosage X-Ray machines (old/standard carry on machines): Domke bags tested effective by manufacturer, up to ASA800

High-dosage X-Ray machines (previously used for checked baggage only, but now being rolled out for carry-on bag screening in form of CT technology): “the amount of lead required to protect film would make the bags too heavy to be practical”

 

 

 

The bold text is your words, not Domke’s! You have equated CT scanner X-ray strength to checked baggage X-ray strength, which is not correct. If you think it is, share the source.

There is no proof that these bags do not work with CT Scanners. There is actually a valid test done by Cinecita which concluded the opposite: the bags keep film safe in CT scanners.

It’s funny when people make up stories to fit their narrative. Just say you prefer to hand scan and leave it at that. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Surge

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Surge said:

The bold text is your words, not Domke’s! You have equated CT scanner X-ray strength to checked baggage X-ray strength, which is not correct. If you think it is, share the source.

There is no proof that these bags do not work with CT Scanners. There is actually a valid test done by Cinecita which concluded the opposite: the bags keep film safe in CT scanners.

It’s funny when people make up stories to fit their narrative. Just say you prefer to hand scan and leave it at that. 

If you read my post I acknowledge I have made some assumptions to form a personal opinion.  The fact that the newer CT hand scanners are “similar” to the X Ray machines  previously used only for checked luggage scanning is very well publicised.  I’ve spent long enough doing my own research to form an opinion, I don’t have time to backtrack on that and dig for references to please you.

I was actually trying to help you on the basis of much recent experiences, as there are some things you seem unwilling or unable to understand.  

Edited August 6, 2023 by grahamc

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Surge said:

The bold text is your words, not Domke’s!

Of course it is. That’s why it appears after the quotation marks that I put around what I quoted from Domke.    

Edited August 6, 2023 by grahamc

[thisisyourlife]

I would like to offer my experience traveling through Europe during the summer of 2023 with film and a Domke film bag.

This summer, I left the USA for Europe. USA had no problems with my hand check request. Frankfurt, no problems. Brussels, no problem. Naples, on the other hand, refused my request so all 25 rolls of 120 film went through the scanner while inside my large Domke bag.

I had with me 15 rolls of BW film and 10 rolls of color film. The BW were 400 Tri-X, 400 HP5, 3200 Delta. The color were 5 rolls of Portra 400 and 5 rolls of Portra 160. Needless to say, I paid a fortune for all this film.

When I returned home, I got all 25 rolls developed, thinking the 3200 film was probably ruined and the Porta should be okay. I was wrong. All 10 rolls of Porta were ruined, and none of the photos are usable. Surprisingly, the 3200 Ilford Delta survived mostly unharmed, and the rest of the BW 400 film were all usable.

I do not recall if Naples had a CT scanner or regular x-ray machine, but most of Europe now, you do not need to take out anything from your bags going through security.

I would not trust a lead film bag to protect your film.

I think in the future, if I know I can get to my destination without my film being exposed, I will bring my own film. If not, I'm buying locally, which I do not like for obvious reasons.

At the end of my trip, I'll find a lab locally to develop or mail it home to myself if no lab is available.

[grahamc]

2 hours ago, thisisyourlife said:

I would like to offer my experience traveling through Europe during the summer of 2023 with film and a Domke film bag.

This summer, I left the USA for Europe. USA had no problems with my hand check request. Frankfurt, no problems. Brussels, no problem. Naples, on the other hand, refused my request so all 25 rolls of 120 film went through the scanner while inside my large Domke bag.

I had with me 15 rolls of BW film and 10 rolls of color film. The BW were 400 Tri-X, 400 HP5, 3200 Delta. The color were 5 rolls of Portra 400 and 5 rolls of Portra 160. Needless to say, I paid a fortune for all this film.

When I returned home, I got all 25 rolls developed, thinking the 3200 film was probably ruined and the Porta should be okay. I was wrong. All 10 rolls of Porta were ruined, and none of the photos are usable. Surprisingly, the 3200 Ilford Delta survived mostly unharmed, and the rest of the BW 400 film were all usable.

I do not recall if Naples had a CT scanner or regular x-ray machine, but most of Europe now, you do not need to take out anything from your bags going through security.

I would not trust a lead film bag to protect your film.

I think in the future, if I know I can get to my destination without my film being exposed, I will bring my own film. If not, I'm buying locally, which I do not like for obvious reasons.

At the end of my trip, I'll find a lab locally to develop or mail it home to myself if no lab is available.

Really sorry to hear of your experience.  Yes, as a general rule when we are not required to remove laptop or liquids then it indicates CT machine.  
What a shame about the Portra

Edited August 7, 2023 by grahamc

[hansvons]

8 hours ago, thisisyourlife said:

When I returned home, I got all 25 rolls developed, thinking the 3200 film was probably ruined and the Porta should be okay. I was wrong. All 10 rolls of Porta were ruined, and none of the photos are usable. Surprisingly, the 3200 Ilford Delta survived mostly unharmed, and the rest of the BW 400 film were all usable.

As it seems, B&W is way more CT/X-ray resistant than colour film. This doesn't fit common experience with scanners. 

Have you thought of a different reason for that, eg the lab screwed up the C41 process? 

[thisisyourlife]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

As it seems, B&W is way more CT/X-ray resistant than colour film. This doesn't fit common experience with scanners. 

Have you thought of a different reason for that, eg the lab screwed up the C41 process? 

I did consider maybe it was a lab issue, but I can see some damage on the B&W also, just not as much as the Portra. I just find it hard that the lab could mess up 10 rolls (100%) of the color film. Just surprising to me that 3200 film survived quite well. It also could be the position of the film inside the lead bag. By chance, was the color film in a position to receive the most damage?

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, thisisyourlife said:

I just find it hard that the lab could mess up 10 rolls (100%) of the color film.

Back in the days when I shot most of my film projects on film, the lab was the bottleneck. 95% of the time, they did a good job. 4% of the time, the material was overcooked. 1% of the time, something went completely wrong, and the rolls went straight to the bin. This rate may vary from lab to lab, of course. I have no experience with professional labs for stills photography, but I assume a similar rate. But I remember well that often the prints came back grainy and foggy from cheap labs in the drug stores—the store's salesperson tent to blame the camera.

Chemistry is expensive. Without replenishment, 1 litre of developer may be capable of developing 12 rolls; others may be happy with 18 rolls or even 24. It depends on what you find acceptable. The C41 routine sounds easy, but economic realities (exhausting the developer as much as possible) and human lack of concern are real.

I'm very picky, and I know what I do on location. That's why I develop my negs at home, including colour. 

My experience with scanners isn't bad at all, fortunately. I bet it's the lab :(.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by hansvons

[hansvons]

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[thisisyourlife]

9 hours ago, hansvons said:

My experience with scanners isn't bad at all, fortunately. I bet it's the lab :(.

Certainly, I will not rule out the lab especially since I have no knowledge if all 10 rolls were developed in the same bath or not.

Do others, for a large batch of film after a long trip, consider using multiple labs to avoid this exact problem?