Anyone new to M11? Advise please!

[Flyer]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Having just retired and always wanted a Leica, I have been doing some research about Leica M11/M10R.

In my research manual focus via zone focusing and using the sunny 16 rule appears to need an aperture of at least f8-f11 which handheld may well need ISO of 3200 - 6400 on a cloudy day to provide enough shutter speed for the 60mp. Any advise on this appreciated.

I guess most Leica M shooters are very experienced with patch focus, Zone Focusing and know the art focusing without even thinking about it.

I would like some advise from people who have transitioned to Leica M’s and maybe tell me what you liked and what you found challenging about a Rangefinder, in particular focusing.

I have for over 10 years been using mirrorless, Sony-Fujifilm etc, for Landscape and seascapes etc. Will the M cameras still be able to do this?

I am a little nervous about spending such a large amount of money to maybe discover Rangefinder is not for me or maybe it will be?

Q2 or Q3 not for me because of fixed lens and to be honest in my opinion won’t give me the Leica experience as doesn’t the SL2 as it’s too big and heavy!

my head is spinning 😳😂

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Flyer

[jaapv]

One advice: Forget Zone focusing. It has its (limited) use in street photography but all too often it is used as a crutch for newbies with the result that they never learn to focus a rangefinder properly.

 

 

[BradS]

Rangefinder cameras are definitely NOT for everyone. I personally find them to be very limiting / confining and only use my Leica in a few specific situations. For everything else, I use an SLR or mirrorless.

It is an awful lot of money to spend on something completely unknown. Why are you considering a Leica? Are you unsatisfied with the gear that you've been using?

Perhaps, you can rent or borrow a Leica kit for a little while and see if it works for you. definitely lay hands on what you think you want and use it for a while.

It's definitely NOT for everyone.

Edited July 22, 2023 by BradS

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, BradS said:

Perhaps, you can rent or borrow a Leica kit for a little while and see if it works for you. definitely lay hands on what you think you want and use it for a while.

It's definitely NOT for everyone.

+1 

Or buy a clean, older model from a reputable dealer, with warranty and return policy.  All Ms focus and operate essentially the same way using the RF.  Not everyone bonds with the experience.  I did immediately….back in the 80’s.. still feels familiar.

Edit.. I see from another post that you (the OP, that is) bought an M10 a couple of months ago.  Well?

Jeff

Edited July 22, 2023 by Jeff S

[Knipsknecht]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Flyer:

[…] I have for over 10 years been using mirrorless, Sony-Fujifilm etc, for Landscape and seascapes etc. Will the M cameras still be able to do this? […]

If you are primarily into land- and seascapes, well, a Leica M-mount camera can do this (and you don’t need zone focusing for this kind of photography), but, personally I think there are better suited cameras on the market for this kind of genre. Especially if you are willing to invest such a big amount of money!

[Bobonli]

+1 on the other comments. There's a learning curve and a $9,000 camera shouldn't be your entry point as far as I'm concerned. Rent or borrow, spend some time with the RF before sinking that amount of money into something new. I've heard that some Leica boutiques will let you take a camera out for a walk. If you have that option, I'd take a CF card to the shop, walk around, then go home and critically analyze your images to make sure you nailed the focus. 

Looking at frame lines through the RF is quite different from other methods of composing and focusing; it's certainly not as quick, at least not at first. I don't own a digital M but I think there's some sort of focus assist (peaking) that you can access in the menus. I've used focus peaking for video and although helpful it's not always 100% spot-on.

I wouldn't purchase a new RF camera unless I was certain I was comfortable operating it. 

[jgeenen]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

When I started my Leica Journey, patch focussing was harder than expected. It needed - and still needs - constant training to stay on top. Too often, I had difficult to judge which object to focus on - e.g. it is very easy to focus on the frame of glasses, but very difficult to hit the eye spot-on. On plants or fences, it is easy to "align" the wrong lines, etc. I find it best to focus mainly into one direction (from infinity down to the spot). And don't be super critical - you will most likely miss a shot if you try to align to the best possible focus. What works for me to get close to the focus point with focus ring and then move my head/camera the last inch or so to nail the sharpest point. 

Next is focus and recomposing - depending on object distance and degree of turn you might need to correct your focus a bit (possibly by moving head/camera) to get the sharpest result for your out-of-center subject.

Last, the worst thing to do is using your monitor to zoom to 100 or 200% to judge sharpness. While this is technically correct, is is simply not important in real life. Depending on the size of the image output and viewing distance you will never be able to see it in real viewing circumstances. I have many pictures that will never be framed and put on the wall but work perfectly well in an album or 8x10 print.

A Final word to the sunny-16 rule: This has nothing specific to rangefinders, it is just an observation (and photographic translation) how bright the sun typically shines in northern hemispheres. It was extremely popular, when light meters were unaccessible or not built-in.  I just use it in manual mode to set the initial aperture/speed combo. I know, it will not be far off in daylight (of course I don't use f/16 but recalulate to f/5.6 or so), and I will not miss a shot. And even Leica has automatic shutter speed since M7. 

But everybody is different, you need to try for yourself. I started my photography journey in 1972 and got used to apertures, speeds and manual focusing including zone focusing.  The "craftmanship" of aligning this tasks is still one of my joys on photography. That's the main reason why I went to Leica M - conserving traditional skills and modern, convenient digital photography. 

Johannes 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by jgeenen

[Photoworks]

Well, despite the comments above, the M camera can bring a nice shooting experience and positive rewards in image quality.

The M cameras are like driving a great manual machine, but it does have automated functions too.

If you are thinking between M10-R and M11, I would go for m11, in the beginning, it is helpful to use the EVF to focus and the M10-R has a long blackout time in between shots.

I would suggest trying one at a Leica event or a Leica store, they often have them available for 1h to play with. The camera takes SD cards, and you can bring one to try it out..

The best lenses are between 28mm and 50mm, longer lenses are available but sometimes harder to focus.
A big difference in focusing for me is to use the correct diopter to help you focus and see the little details in the rangefinder.

Sunny 16 is ok, but unless you want everything in focus it is not a great solution. The M11 has a great auto ISO and Auto Shutter, all you need to do is set F-stop on the lens and focus. 

Most of the time I shoot between 1.4-4 to get some separation of the subject and the background, that is where the magic is for me. Learn to focus, and predict where you subject will be.

 

Have fun with it.

[dpitt]

6 hours ago, Flyer said:

I am a little nervous about spending such a large amount of money to maybe discover Rangefinder is not for me or maybe it will be?

 

M rangefinders are special, but they can be wonderful if you are like me. I now prefer them over any other camera system, that I use.
When I was in your position coming from a Nikon DSLR, the only digital M was the M8. It was probably as expensive and alien for me as the M11 is for you, so I can relate.

My advice would be:

1. First, try to find a shop where you can handle one. Have look through the viewfinder, see if you can get some shop assistent to demo its use a bit. And do not mind if you are not immediately comfortable with it. The main thing is if you like the view through the finder and the weight and size of the camera.
   I was (almost) completely sold the moment I brought the viewfinder to my eye. So bright and natural. I wanted to work with it. My main concern was that I would not be able to learn (and get over) the MF thing. Of course I had used MF lenses in the 80s and 90s with my film Nikon's, but leaving the AF out completely can be scary.
2. Someone on this forum advised me to buy a cheap user film M and see if that worked for me. Shortly after I acquired a M2 with 50mm Summicron to try it out. I hardly had issues with the RF. On the contrary, after a few weeks of practice it has become my preferred and quickest way of focusing.
   The M is best with lenses from 28 to 90 mm. Go wider and you need an OVF or EVF to frame. Go longer and EVF is the only option. Macro is very limited. The RF system is designed for 0.7m minimal focus distance. With EVF you can go closer, but most lenses for the M will be designed with minimal 0.7 to 1 m distance.
   Of course, the sharpness of the lenses and resolution of the M11 will allow for digital cropping up to the 200mm range.
3. I found that I needed a different system for long tele and macro, certainly with my M9(18MP) and M8 (10MP) 
   90% of what i do is covered by the RF system, but these two area's made me purchase (keep) my Lumix Gx8 and Leica R lenses, and now recently a Leica SL.
   If you can live with the M11 being ideal for 28-90 mm work, and are prepared to switch to other system for studio, macro, long tele work where needed, I think you will be very pleased with your M11
4. I found out Leica keeps its value much better than the other brands, so it is not very expensive to use on the long term.

Just my 2 cents...

Have fun with your Leica quest. I just read you decided to take step 1 while I was typing this...

Edited July 22, 2023 by dpitt

[DadDadDaddyo]

I would encourage you not to assume that the presence of the M11 on the market means that you should give lesser consideration to the M10R. I say that as an M11 owner. 

I say it, in part, because I've also owned and used an M10 Monochrom from several years. It and the M10R are simply wonderful camera bodies, and they might very well be available at a better price than the M11.

For that matter, don't overlook the M240 and M246. These are 24 megapixel bodies of outstanding quality. My guess is that you could find an M240 *and a great first lens (many suggestions available) for less than the price of of an M11 body alone. 

Although I used film-based Leicas extensively from the late 60's until around 1994, there was a period of around a decade that I went first through a phase with Canon digital bodies, before settling on Fujifilm bodies and optics, specifically, the X-Pro line and the GFX100 medium format line. I never had reason to complain about the image quality they offered. 

But as the Leica bodies reached and surpassed 24 megapixels I found myself drawn back. I still had in hand the legacy lenses, and they were wonderful on the new bodies. Today I use an M11 and an M11M primarily. So good has been their performance that I've moved away from the Fujifilm digital medium format line.

Good luck with your explorations!

Edited July 22, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Ian Brown said:

Thanks for all the comments and advice, I think the best option is to go to a Leica store, my nearest is about 140 miles away. However it may be useful to try one and just see how I feel about focusing etc, I know it takes many months to get the camera to work like a glove but it will probably give an instant idea if its for me or not.

 

Thanks Again

Are you the OP, aka ‘Flyer’?

Jeff

[chris7273]

Hi Flyer

You already had an M10… you didn’t like it… 

will you like it now ? A rangefinder is a rangefinder (my M2’s viewfinder is as usable as the one of my M11). If you didn’t like the M10, then a more recent M will be as « bad » 🙂
 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by chris7273

[mediumformula]

If you're shooting landscapes you will have plenty of time to set your focus.  The M is great for landscape because it is light and portable.  I take my M11M hiking with me.   You're not going to be zone focusing for this type of photography.  However, I think digital Ms are great for zone focusing when the subject matter is appropriate.  I set to f8 or f11 and if you get comfortable with a tabbed focus ring lens you can start getting relatively accurate with your subject and then let the wide depth of field do the rest.  With the hight ISO capabilities of modern digital M cameras you will have the ability to shoot at M11 even outside of perfect daylight.

[Leica Filmmatic]

What city are 

On 7/22/2023 at 5:56 PM, Unknown said:

First I’ll say I never go to the Leica store here. They have a weird vibe. I don’t like the store. I just go to the regular camera store which is also a Leica dealer. They’re not pretentious. They sell every brand and they treat me nice. 

I took to it like fish to water to be honest. It’s so easy every camera should work like this. Someone gave me a DSLR the other day and I was about to throw it in the bin. It was really frustrating to focus. 

I don’t think one should force a rangefinder. You will know if that’s your tool. Otherwise I would suggest to stick to mirrorless.

You shouldn’t have to be forced to “get used to” something. The camera should fit you and not the other way around. 

I guess that’s why I never had problems. Everything made so much more sense. I borrowed one and I knew I had found my camera. It was like meeting an old friend I hadn’t seen in ages. Every photo was pin sharp the very second I started taking pictures. The guy just gave it to me and left. He didn’t explain much. Other than the arrows in the viewfinder. 

the only thing I had to get used to was using the frame line to keep things straight and compose things. No more levels and EVF’s. 

if you like action shots and you like to take many photos then don’t get a rangefinder. You have to consider everything you’re doing. Pay a lot of attention and anticipate.

It’s a camera for a specific type of photography. A Leica M is not an all purpose camera. 
 

as far as sunny 16 rules you can forget it. You’re shooting a digital camera. Trust and get to know yur meter. On the M10R is the classic center weighted meter.

I would suggest you try to find a brand new M10R from a reputable official Leica dealer close to you so you can go and test it when you buy it. 

When it’s cloudy I shoot at ISO800 outdoors. Usually I’m between f4 and f8 and I like to shoot at 1/250 unless things aren’t moving like a building. If the light is even you can just use auto ISO. My mistake when I came to Leica M was that I shot it like a mirrorless. A buddy suggested to just go all manual and I haven’t looked back since  So I rarely use the auto features  

set your focus to infinity every time after a photo. You only have to move the focus tab one way. 

You seem to be hung up on zone focusing and shooting from the hip. Just forget about that. Look through the finder and focus properly.

I’ve taken photos without looking but that’s after you’ve been shooting for a while all the time the same lens and camera. 

I took this one for example. I just quickly swung up and pressed. I wasn’t looking through the finder and I wasn’t expecting it so it does have motion blur because I didn’t expect it I was at 1/500, ISO100, f6.7 (apparently I was between f5.6 and f8)  you want 1/1000 to really freeze stuff like birds  

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

But again. Typical rangefinder. This is only 1 shot I took. Literally I saw the bird and CLICK. One time. One shot one photo only.

If you were shooting a Sony you can just lay on the shutter for 5 minutes and spray and it will track the bird for you. You’re basically taking a video and extracting a frame. 
 

What’s the experience for you though? To be honest I know nobody cares about my pictures. And they’re not good pictures anyway, but you know the satisfaction I get personally to look at that picture and think “man. I got that in 1 shot without looking”. It’s a different experience. 
 

It’s something you may use on occasion when something unexpected happens but to be honest, 99.9999% of my pictures I just look through the viewfinder and focus properly. You really have to consider the frame.

also because it takes so much concentration is a great way to take your mind off things for a couple of hours. It helps you reset. Like meditation.  

what city are you in?

[LeicaR10]

Flyer,  I sent you a PM that may help you. r/ Mark

[LikameLeica]

On 7/22/2023 at 11:33 PM, Flyer said:

Having just retired and always wanted a Leica, I have been doing some research about Leica M11/M10R.

In my research manual focus via zone focusing and using the sunny 16 rule appears to need an aperture of at least f8-f11 which handheld may well need ISO of 3200 - 6400 on a cloudy day to provide enough shutter speed for the 60mp. Any advise on this appreciated.

I guess most Leica M shooters are very experienced with patch focus, Zone Focusing and know the art focusing without even thinking about it.

I would like some advise from people who have transitioned to Leica M’s and maybe tell me what you liked and what you found challenging about a Rangefinder, in particular focusing.

I have for over 10 years been using mirrorless, Sony-Fujifilm etc, for Landscape and seascapes etc. Will the M cameras still be able to do this?

I am a little nervous about spending such a large amount of money to maybe discover Rangefinder is not for me or maybe it will be?

Q2 or Q3 not for me because of fixed lens and to be honest in my opinion won’t give me the Leica experience as doesn’t the SL2 as it’s too big and heavy!

my head is spinning 😳😂

 

 

Flyer, sorry to be so direct, but I am confused by your post and question about owning a range finder and the experience.  You posted back in July 2021 that you owned and used a Leica M10 and then sold it at a loss.  If you already owned an M10 and experienced the focusing on a range finder, why are you asking the forum this question?  Would't you already know what it is like to use a M for "Landscapes and Seascapes"??  Sorry if I am missing something.... 

Posted June 8, 2021

Bought an M10 3 weeks ago and I have been struggling with the patch focusing, I am now getting better at zone focus and hyperfocal distance. However I have a bit of a knee jerk personality and decided to sell it. I know I could add the EVF but that just adds size and somewhat defects the purpose.

I guess if I am honest, I love the retro feel, looks and simplicity but at heart I am a bit of a techno geek!

Its pretty much brand new, but I struggled to sell it (in UK) for £4250 which I think is a fare price for whats essentially brand new and not yet registered so it has a 2 year warranty.

Looks like I am going to have to maybe bring it down to (other used prices) and older M10's to around £3800 to get some interest. Part of me is reluctant to lose £1000 in 3 weeks, so I am on the fence about persevering with it longer.

Anyone else been here and what did you do, bite the bullet?

[chris7273]

This member asks a lot of questions and never replies. There’s a new topic :  « I bought an M11 and I wonder if the EVF will help me for the rangefinder ». 
don’t bother to reply… some guys are helpless.  
next topic : the M11 is crap bla bla bla…

[lct]

Just 5 tips in the form of a joke:
1/ Read the above posts carefully.
2/ Forget the above posts carefully
3/ Rent, borrow or buy an M11 with a Visoflex 2.
4/ Use your M11 in LV (live view) mode with the Visoflex 2 for a start. This will help you to realize that the M11 can be used like the mirrorless cameras you're used to and you will feel familiar with it this way.
5/ When you are satisfied with your results in LV mode, switch to RF (rangefinder) mode and try to do as well or better this way. If you don't succeed at first, it doesn't matter, you can always use your M11 in LV mode in the meantime.
Happy snaps

Edited July 24, 2023 by lct

[sometimesmaybe]

On 7/25/2023 at 6:17 AM, lct said:

Just 5 tips in the form of a joke:
1/ Read the above posts carefully.
2/ Forget the above posts carefully
3/ Rent, borrow or buy an M11 with a Visoflex 2.
4/ Use your M11 in LV (live view) mode with the Visoflex 2 for a start. This will help you to realize that the M11 can be used like the mirrorless cameras you're used to and you will feel familiar with it this way.
5/ When you are satisfied with your results in LV mode, switch to RF (rangefinder) mode and try to do as well or better this way. If you don't succeed at first, it doesn't matter, you can always use your M11 in LV mode in the meantime.
Happy snaps

i second the above!

i moved into leica about a year ago. i've only shot mirrorless upto that point. my eyesight is not the best, but having an EVF has made all the difference

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Max EPR]

All the previous comments are very thoughtful. The only thing I will add is that mastering a M camera made me a lot more knowledgeable about the essential operations of all cameras. The requirements for proper use of a M camera made my photos technically much improved.