Best value 'M' lenses available today

[robbie3]

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I had fun with my M mount 1954 Ernst Leitz GmbH Weltzar Hektor 13.5cm f/4.5 over the weekend. 

It's a challenge to use quickly & tbh it looks a little odd but it cost me £50 in a reputable camera shop earlier this year.

I guess that even though it's cheap to buy it may not be the best value if it's not used much

I just happened to find a use case that suited it (right focal length and the lens stopped down to reduce the shutter speed for panning).

 

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Edited July 10, 2023 by robbie3

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[rtai]

I wish I still own the E49 MATE. Sold it because f4 was too slow for film. I should keep an eye out for one to use with my M10M.

[pippy]

Apologies in advance for repeatedly flying the flag for the 50mm f1.5 Summarit but I'm about to do so yet again!............

Having just delved into the archives of the dim and distant past (well; August last year) for an image for a completely different thread hereabouts I thought some members who don't frequent that quarter of the Forum might be interested in viewing an image which shows how the lens in question renders if stopped down just one click.

'A Picture Is Worth...'... (and so on) so here is a happy-snap taken at pretty-much MFD. Camera (FWIW) was M Monochrom and exposure was 1/2000 / f2.0 @ ISO320. If I had remembered to profile the lens to the body (hardly a 'Given'!) it would have been that for an old 50mm Summilux;

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IMO at f2.0 there is no issue with the lens' sharpness and the rendering of the OOF bits is very pleasant. I also consider there to be easily enough 3D Pop for my liking and there is a fair amount of 'character' on show into the bargain.

It would, of course, have been nice - and probably rather educational - to have taken a second frame of the same subject-matter with my v4 Summicron for comparison-purposes but, well, I was on holiday and the waiter had just delivered my glass of beer...

Philip.

Edited July 10, 2023 by pippy

[pgk]

8 hours ago, pippy said:

Apologies in advance for repeatedly flying the flag for the 50mm f1.5 Summarit but I'm about to do so yet again!............

..... I thought some members who don't frequent that quarter of the Forum might be interested in viewing an image which shows how the lens in question renders if stopped down just one click.

Indeed. Photographic lens progress appears to have taken place optically in two areas over the last century - wide open performance of fast lenses and improved performance of wide-angle lenses. Most seems to have happened in the last 20 years. I had a 50mm Summilux (the last version pre-aspheric) and now have the aspheric which shows siginifican improvement wide-open over its predecessor. And as for wide-angles, well ultra-wide zooms or diminutive lenses such as the 21SEM show marked progress and again much of this is within the last two decades.

Faster, older lenses show more 'character' when used wide open in that their aberations can be pleasant and effective, but IMO and FWIW older wide angles often show poor (soft) corner and close-up performance which has improved significantly with new designs. Having used many older wide-angle lenses I would say that few (perhaps the SA being one) really provide 'character' unlike faster lenses used wide open.

[lct]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Faster, older lenses show more 'character' when used wide open in that their aberations can be pleasant and effective, but IMO and FWIW older wide angles often show poor (soft) corner and close-up performance which has improved significantly with new designs. Having used many older wide-angle lenses I would say that few (perhaps the SA being one) really provide 'character' unlike faster lenses used wide open.

Indeed but the character of older lenses may come from superior features too. Distortion comes to mind on lenses like Biogon 21/4.5 or Super-Angulon 21/3.4 to a lesser extent. Shorter MFD and sharper rendition at close distance can be a character of older lenses too (same examples). As far as chromatic aberration is concerned, new designs don't look significantly superior either.  

[pgk]

39 minutes ago, lct said:

Indeed but the character of older lenses may come from superior features too. Distortion comes to mind on lenses like Biogon 21/4.5 or Super-Angulon 21/3.4 to a lesser extent. Shorter MFD and sharper rendition at close distance can be a character of older lenses too (same examples). As far as chromatic aberration is concerned, new designs don't look significantly superior either.  

The thing is; distortion can be corrected for in post processing, soft corners can't (but they can be added). Semi-symmetrical designs such as the SA worked well close up but so do modern designs. I have had a couple of SAs and the only real difference that can't be mimicked is the effect of the square aperture although it might not actually be an endearing feature!

[lct]

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

The thing is; distortion can be corrected for in post processing, soft corners can't (but they can be added). Semi-symmetrical designs such as the SA worked well close up but so do modern designs. I have had a couple of SAs and the only real difference that can't be mimicked is the effect of the square aperture although it might not actually be an endearing feature!

Hehe yes but to me, at least, there is only one relevant difference, i mean pics i can shoot with legacy lenses and i could not with modern ones. Two examples below with ZM 21/4.5 (low distortion) and S-A 21/3.4 (sharp close-up). Not to say that i dislike modern lenses like SEM 21/3.4 but i can't seem to make it perform at such levels.

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[RexGig0]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:31 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I am a little surprised that the Voigtlander APO Lanthars did not have more nominations here... I guess there are two more or less general camps of Leica users. There are those who are the romantics, who tend to like the style and older lens renderings, and focus more on the compactness, build quality and ambience of using Leica cameras and lenses. Then there are the precision/optical quality fans, who tend to like that Leica usually has the very best optics at every given generation, at least in relation to the size of the camera/lens, and they tend to be willing to pay a premium for those very latest entries.

I certainly do recognize the value of the Cosina/Voigtlander 50mm and 35mm APO Lanthar VM lenses, but did not “nominate” them, because I do not yet own either of them. If I nominated them, I might well have been quoted, and challenged to defend them. I reckoned that I would leave that to folks who actually own these lenses. 😉

As for the “two camps” of Leica shooters, I seem to have a foot in each camp, with a mix of characters lenses, and modern lenses. Life is good. 🙂

I very much love the Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 Distagon ZM, but, until I can directly compare it with the Voigtlander 35mm APO Lanthar VM, I am not certain whether the Distagon is a better value than the APO Lanthar. 

If I had a duty to provide best-quality images, at the “normal” focal length, especially in conditions where flare might be a problem, and wanted to use a Leica M camera body to perform that task, I would most certainly be ordering a Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar VM. I have seen reliable reports that the APO Lanthar is more flare-resistant than the Leica APO. I know that the Zeiss Distagon 35mm ZM is more flare-resistant than any of my Leica lenses, except perhaps for the quite “modern” Elmar-M 24mm ASPH, and that is simply because I have not shot them side-by-side, and have not yet tried the Elmar-M 24mm ASPH in challenging conditions, so, simply do not yet know that I do not yet know.

I was well-acquainted with Cosina-made Voigtlander and Zeiss SLR lenses, before I added the Leica M system. Actually, the day, in April 2018, that I bought my first Leica M lens, pre-owned, and my new M10, I also bought a new Nikon-mount Zeiss Otus 85mm, which I “financed” by permanently scuttling plans to buy an expensive (~$13K US, after taxes) Nikon 600mm f/4 super-telephoto monster of a lens. (I was still rehabilitating a left shoulder injury, so, would not be using a heavy lens, anytime soon, but also felt that I was simply aging-out of wanting to tote a lens weighing over 3800 grams, no matter how serious we were about bird photography*.)

*Filling the frame, with a small bird, is something that “requires” 600mm, and, early-morning or sundown shooting “requires” f/4. Thankfully, my wife and I both tired of trying to keep up with the truly serious small-bird photographers. She shifted her attention to plants, fungi, and small creatures. I already liked macro and close-range, anyway, and started dabbling with using short telephoto lenses for landscapes and seascapes.

Edited July 11, 2023 by RexGig0

[RexGig0]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Hehe yes but to me, at least, there is only one relevant difference, i mean pics i can shoot with legacy lenses and i could not with modern ones. Two examples below with ZM 21/4.5 (low distortion) and S-A 21/3.4 (sharp close-up). Not to say that i dislike modern lenses like SEM 21/3.4 but i can't seem to make it perform at such levels.

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The Zeiss 21mm f/4.5 ZM is a truly wonderful lens. I may yet, someday, buy a 21mm SEM, but, it will not replace my little Zeiss gem.

[Jon Warwick]

On 7/9/2023 at 3:31 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I am a little surprised that the Voigtlander APO Lanthars did not have more nominations here... I guess there are two more or less general camps of Leica users. There are those who are the romantics, who tend to like the style and older lens renderings, and focus more on the compactness, build quality and ambience of using Leica cameras and lenses. Then there are the precision/optical quality fans, who tend to like that Leica usually has the very best optics at every given generation, at least in relation to the size of the camera/lens, and they tend to be willing to pay a premium for those very latest entries.

I think the Voigtlander APO Lanthars are not as appealing to the first group for two main reasons. The first is that they are not Leica, and while well built and in a vintage aesthetic, they are not as classic as an actual older Leica lens. The second is that they are quite a bit bigger than the more compact lenses in their focal length. Their absolute optical performance is not as important to this group of users. On film, you would be very hard pressed to see a difference between an APO Lanthar and a V4 or V5 Summicron, for example.

For the second group of optical purists, they are a bit more attractive. They still have two main strikes for this group. 1. They are not Leica, and a certain subset of this group are Leica purists who do not want a non-Leica lens no matter how well it performs and what kind of value it offers. 2. These lenses are bigger than the 50mm APO Summicron and 35mm APO Summicron they compete with.

My case for them as being the best values would be that if you truly want to get everything you can out of one of the newer digital M bodies like the M10R, M10 Mono or M11, the more modern APO lenses are required (assuming you are interested in sharpness across the whole frame at wide/moderate apertures and minimal aberrations like fringing). Leica's best standard lenses for the M are the 50mm APO and 35mm APO, both of which are extraordinarily expensive, particularly in comparison to other companies's options in the same focal length and aperture. While most of those other lenses cannot compete optically with the Leica, the Voigtlander APO Lanthars can, and they can do so at a very very low price by comparison. For me this is the key arbiter of value. The Leica 35mm APO is 8300 dollars before tax at B&H and the 35mm APO Lanthar is 999. The Leica is smaller, but it is actually a few grams heavier. In the case of the 50mm lenses, the Voigtlander is also a bit bigger, but still slightly lighter, and then you are comparing 999 to 9095 dollars...nearly ten times the price for a lens that is made by Leica instead of Voigtlander and with a more compact, but heavier body.

Anyway, I realize that this has become super long, but that's my vote for the Voigtlander APO Lanthars as being the best value M lenses. Nothing else can give you essentially the very best Leica is capable of making at a tiny fraction of the price. For me at least, it makes the 35mm and 50mm APO Summicron M lenses a very poor value by comparison.

Fully agree re the APO Lanthars, I have both the 35 and 50mm that I use on an M11 and M10M. IMHO, the image quality is epic, and very much reminds me of the M 50 APO Summicron (which I used to own).

The physical length of the Lanthar lenses is the main downside for me, esp the 35mm which is physically longer than the 50mm Lanthar and compounded by the framelines dynamic too for 35 vs 50mm. Having tried the M 35 APO Summicron, I’d personally consider that lens more from the angle of its small size, which is lovely in itself (rather than image quality differentials versus the APO Lanthar). 

Reid Reviews did a detailed review of comparing the M 35mm APO vs the Voigtlander 35mm APO Lanthar, which I found very helpful and worth (for me) his modest subscription price.

The M series of camera bodies seem to get more expensive over the years, but lenses such as the APO Lanthars keep the cost of the “system” more manageable without giving up any image quality (to my eyes at least).

[Martin B]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:28 PM, pippy said:

Apologies in advance for repeatedly flying the flag for the 50mm f1.5 Summarit but I'm about to do so yet again!............

Having just delved into the archives of the dim and distant past (well; August last year) for an image for a completely different thread hereabouts I thought some members who don't frequent that quarter of the Forum might be interested in viewing an image which shows how the lens in question renders if stopped down just one click.

'A Picture Is Worth...'... (and so on) so here is a happy-snap taken at pretty-much MFD. Camera (FWIW) was M Monochrom and exposure was 1/2000 / f2.0 @ ISO320. If I had remembered to profile the lens to the body (hardly a 'Given'!) it would have been that for an old 50mm Summilux;

 

IMO at f2.0 there is no issue with the lens' sharpness and the rendering of the OOF bits is very pleasant. I also consider there to be easily enough 3D Pop for my liking and there is a fair amount of 'character' on show into the bargain.

It would, of course, have been nice - and probably rather educational - to have taken a second frame of the same subject-matter with my v4 Summicron for comparison-purposes but, well, I was on holiday and the waiter had just delivered my glass of beer...

Philip.

Also a fan of the 50/1.5 Summarit lens - great and often unpredictable bokeh with a special glow wide open. Not as sharp wide open compared to vintage Canon and Nikkor 50/1.4 LTM lenses which all have very unique lens properties. The Summarit lens is still in the more affordable lens range for vintage Leitz lenses  around $500-600. Prices have not increased as much compared to other M-mount Leitz/Leica lenses. It is harder now to find one in excellent condition without scratches on front lens etc. 

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, Martin B said:

...Not as sharp wide open compared to vintage Canon and Nikkor 50/1.4 LTM lenses which all have very unique lens properties...

I don't have f1.4 lenses from either manufacturer in LTM thread but for a while I did choose very often with a Serenar-style 50mm f1.8 Canon. In general use it is a very fine lens  - and in some situations is a 'better' choice than the Summarit - but it exhibits more barrel-distortion than I like and as much of what I shoot can be roughly described as 'Urban Landscape' it tends to get left behind more often than not.

Philip.

[Martin B]

12 minutes ago, pippy said:

I don't have f1.4 lenses from either manufacturer in LTM thread but for a while I did choose very often with a Serenar-style 50mm f1.8 Canon. In general use it is a very fine lens  - and in some situations is a 'better' choice than the Summarit - but it exhibits more barrel-distortion than I like and as much of what I shoot can be roughly described as 'Urban Landscape' it tends to get left behind more often than not.

Philip.

This is my current "collection of 45 and 50 mm lenses - they all fall in a price range between $500-1500 per lens. I consider myself lucky to have mint copies without scratches etc. From upper left to bottom:

Leitz 50/2.0 Summicron M dual-range lens, 1960
Leitz 50/1.5 Summarit LTM lens, 1953
Leica 50/2.0 Summicron M lens, 2003
Nikkor 50/1.4 LTM lens, early 1950s
Canon 50/1.4 LTM lens, type II, 1972 (nicknamed Japanese Summilux)
Leitz Summitar 50/2 LTM extractable lens, 1945
Konica-Minolta Super Rokkor Chiyoko 45/2.8 LTM lens, 1956

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[Smudgerer]

Well despite my niggling problems with it's lens-hood/filter miss-design, ( which apparently Leica is/will be addressing ), I have to say that as far as new Leica brand lenses go the 35mm f1.4 Summilux-Classic SR re-issue is very good value with beautiful and unique rendering at f1.4 to f2 then sharp across the board when at +f4.5. It is more than two lenses in one, Leica just has to fix the hood/filter usage issues soon please.

Used Leica lenses? My vote here goes to the 50mm f2.8 collapsible Elmar that can be found at under €1K in great shape. It's a sharp and versatile lens that when mounted on a M camera turns out to be a very portable / pocket-able combination and yes, I like a small lens profile on any M camera, this fits that bill nicely.

Voigtlanders? Keeping with the 35mm FL my vote goes to the VM Nokton Classic f1.4 35 II SC. Yes it does have a very similar performance to the above mentioned Leica 35mm Summilux Classic SR re-issue, almost imperceptibly so especially on film, but with in my mind it has better design and handling characteristics plus being available in black finish too!  The Voigtlander 75mm f1.5 lens is quite wonderful too for stupid cheap.......I just don't use it much though as I almost never go above 50mm FL on an M.

7Artisans? I only have the 28mm f5.6 lens. I bought it whilst I still owned the Leica 28mm Summaron so I could test them side by side, but sold the Leica soon afterwards when I couldn't see any reason to keep it after trying out the 7Artisans lens. I got over €2K for the Summaron, and at that time the 7Artisans 28mm f5.6 cost me under €300, and it was in Black! For me, it was a no-brainer.

I've been tempted by the LLL 35mm f2 / 8 Element offerings but the usage of both the Leica Summilux Classic SR re-issue and the Voigtlander Nokton Classic 1.4 II has shown that purchase to be unnecessary, de-gassed.

[Martin B]

10 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Well despite my niggling problems with it's lens-hood/filter miss-design, ( which apparently Leica is/will be addressing ), I have to say that as far as new Leica brand lenses go the 35mm f1.4 Summilux-Classic SR re-issue is very good value with beautiful and unique rendering at f1.4 to f2 then sharp across the board when at +f4.5. It is more than two lenses in one, Leica just has to fix the hood/filter usage issues soon please.

Used Leica lenses? My vote here goes to the 50mm f2.8 collapsible Elmar that can be found at under €1K in great shape. It's a sharp and versatile lens that when mounted on a M camera turns out to be a very portable / pocket-able combination and yes, I like a small lens profile on any M camera, this fits that bill nicely.

Voigtlanders? Keeping with the 35mm FL my vote goes to the VM Nokton Classic f1.4 35 II SC. Yes it does have a very similar performance to the above mentioned Leica 35mm Summilux Classic SR re-issue, almost imperceptibly so especially on film, but with in my mind it has better design and handling characteristics plus being available in black finish too!  The Voigtlander 75mm f1.5 lens is quite wonderful too for stupid cheap.......I just don't use it much though as I almost never go above 50mm FL on an M.

7Artisans? I only have the 28mm f5.6 lens. I bought it whilst I still owned the Leica 28mm Summaron so I could test them side by side, but sold the Leica soon afterwards when I couldn't see any reason to keep it after trying out the 7Artisans lens. I got over €2K for the Summaron, and at that time the 7Artisans 28mm f5.6 cost me under €300, and it was in Black! For me, it was a no-brainer.

I've been tempted by the LLL 35mm f2 / 8 Element offerings but the usage of both the Leica Summilux Classic SR re-issue and the Voigtlander Nokton Classic 1.4 II has shown that purchase to be unnecessary, de-gassed.

Agree with the rendering and quality of the CV 75/1.5 M- lens which I also own. High quality and sharp wide open with beautiful more modern looking background blur. I have the silver version of this lens which has IMO two debits - the red stripe to mount the lens on the camera is very faint and hard to see on the silver body especially in dim light. The silver lens hood can cause some flare by reflections from the sun with the lens wide open (when closed the issue disappears). But definitely a keeper lens for me for the price and quality it offers!

So far the only Chinese M-mount lens I bought is the TTArtisan 11/2.8 fisheye M-mount lens. No rangefinder coupling but excellent built and optical quality for the price. 

[taketwo]

On 6/13/2023 at 4:12 AM, Al Brown said:

The most undervalued M lens is the Summicron-C 40/2 period.

would it be range finder coupled to something like an m8?

[lct]

4 hours ago, taketwo said:

would it be range finder coupled to something like an m8?

The Summicron 40/2 for Leica CL but also the two Rokkors 40/2 for Minolta CL and Minolta CLE as well as the Elmarit 40/2.8 for Leica CL are coupled with digital rangefinders like those of the M8, M8.2, M9, M240, M10, M11 and Epson R-D1. Pixii too i believe but i have no experience with it.

[Alberti]

1. I like to vote for 40mm M-Rokkor, though It developed haze in a minor way, so I had it CLA'd which meant that Will van Maanen had to disassemble the lens and polish . . . But it came out 95% again. Before the haze it was my favourite. I bought it for €450, had it coded (+€ 100) , ten years later spent € 350 for CLA. The 35 Summicron4 that has the same style of signature (but more that is). @taketwo - Excellent RF coupling; I bought it for my M8. But note: at that time I found no UV/IR filter at 40.5mm and that was a shame; I should have used a 40.5-43mm adapter then 43mm. Now these filters are plentifull. On M8 it is really needed.
2. Also I have the Nikkor-HC 50mm LTM. The focus cam 'out of the box' does not go beyond 100cm. But van Maanen opened up the mount such that it follows now to 70cm. It is a great lens. I'ld say superb. 
3. I tried Jupiter-3 lenses which are super too for portraits (specially the single coated ones) , but I always check the focus with the EVF, because of focus shift (even with the Amadeo). I probably should have the lens adjusted professionally. 
4. The Canon 50mm F/1.4 LTM should be mentioned too. Again, van Maanen adjusted it. I have too little words for it, so I keep silent 🤫.
5. Then again, the Canon 35mm F/2.8 LTM is a marvel too. That has a slight yellow colour by now because of degradation of the thorium of the lens - but that implies that it is great for slightly darker skins. 

Nikkor-HC: [not an APO lens? Then it must be garbage.]

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Edited March 25, 2024 by Alberti

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[KFo]

I have the Canon 35 f/2.8 LTM (sn 13588  ~1952) and the 28 f/2.8 LTM ( sn 10786 ~1956/1960)  They are both very nice little jewel-like lenses and are cheap measured on the Leica scale of spending.  The aperture rings are crisp and precise and focusing rings smooth.  The straight down position for the focus tab conforms well to my usage at about 3m.  They are from the era that may well have thorium containing lens elements however neither exhibit any yellowing visually or in photos taken.

They are my favorite lenses (and I have everything) for a variety of reasons. Primarily the way they draw and the roll off between POF and fore/background as well as slightly lower contrast than others.  They vignette dramatically wide open and aren't sharp across the frame either. They do get quite acute by f/5.6 but never to a contemporary standard.  I never photograph brick walls or bookshelves so I can't comment on other common dimensions of performance.  E.g. they are deeply defective in the gear forum world.😁

They are very nice if their defects suit you.  

Edited March 25, 2024 by KFo