Jono Slack Review: The Leica Q3

[LUF Admin]

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Hi, moderator here, taking note.

@Miltz Of course you are free to look for other reviews from other testers with a different point of view. Please share them.

But your question („I wanna see an independent review. “) implies that Jono is not an independent tester.

You may have noticed that some members sees this differently (including me) and that this seen as a kind of insult.

I suggest that everyone calms down a bit, you look for other reviews and share them and we can discuss them – in another thread.

Andreas

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[jonoslack]

9 hours ago, Miltz said:

Well someone who bought the camera with their money and doesn’t have a 20 year relationship with Leica. It’s nothing personal, but you get what I’m saying. I guess I’ll conduct my own review when I get it and test it out personally. 

Hi There Miltz

I do buy my cameras with my own money, which is why (you may have noticed) the Q3 is going back to Leica - because I didn't choose to buy it. If I bought everything I reviewed I'd be totally skint 🤣. I do recognise that quite a lot of camera companies allow their reviewers to keep the review equipment, sadly Leica doesn't do this!

I might reassure you that I don't have any contractual arrangement with Leica - they have never paid me for my work, and I don't get paid by anyone else either - I do it for fun (because I'm nuts my wife might say). Obviously after this amount of time I have good friends there - but my real purpose is to find out what's wrong with their kit.

Having a 20 year (well, let's be strictly honest, it's 16 years) relationship with them means that I understand them well (and their intentions), of course this is a double edged sword, and your point is certainly not taken personally - it's reasonable!

On the other hand, as a tester, I usually spend several months with a piece of equipment before reviewing it, and you might think that gives me a good insight. Not many people have that luxury before writing.

If you want more technical information then I recommend you go to Reidreviews.com where Sean goes into every little detail.

Anyway - I understand what you're saying, and I certainly didn't take it personally

All the very best

Jono

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by jonoslack

[elmars]

I have been a beta tester with Jono and others for several years. We discuss very openly and take a very critical look at the new Leica products. Jono is probably the most knowledgeable and critical among us. If you read his reviews carefully, you can tell when he disagrees with something. But they are written with sympathy for Leica and the inimitable English ability to package criticism in a friendly way. That's why negative things are not so obvious. It's the same with the Q3. 

Most other so-called reviews, even those by well-known people on YouTube, are superficial and meaningless. There are only a few exceptions. The Sean Reid mentioned by Jono is one of them. Otherwise, the best insights are not from individual reviews, but from many individual insights and discussions here in the forum. You have to make the effort to follow it a bit though.

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, elmars said:

Otherwise, the best insights are not from individual reviews, but from many individual insights and discussions here in the forum. You have to make the effort to follow it a bit though.

First of all Elmar - thank you for the kind words - they're very much appreciated, and I certainly do try to be calm (except possibly to Leica!)

There is a point that's worth making here, that there will inevitably be things about a camera which I personally do not like, but if other people do like them, and they work properly, then it's really not my job to irritate those people with my own subjective opinions, so I try not to do that.

Just as an example, personally, I really don't see the point of buying a 60mp camera and taking 36mp or 18mp images with it. But I realise that lots of people do like this function, and it works well, so I don't think it's my place to criticise it. 

And Elmar - you're quite right, the many individual insights and discussions here on the forum are a really good way of getting a proper feel for a camera.

All the best

[geddon_jt]

I’m not sure buying a camera and reviewing it after purchase automatically evidences a less subjective bias than reviewing a camera that was loaned to you by the manufacturer. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true, since one may be more inclined to have some confirmation bias to justify their investment, particularly given the cost of Leica items. Either way there is necessarily some degree of subjectively. The only thing objective about any camera review is it’s spec sheet.

[jonoslack]

29 minutes ago, geddon_jt said:

I’m not sure buying a camera and reviewing it after purchase automatically evidences a less subjective bias than reviewing a camera that was loaned to you by the manufacturer. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true, since one may be more inclined to have some confirmation bias to justify their investment, particularly given the cost of Leica items. Either way there is necessarily some degree of subjectively. The only thing objective about any camera review is it’s spec sheet.

Hah! Spec sheets aren't always that objective either 🤣 - 

Although for most people it's a real treat to be loaned a camera to test by the manufacturer, I can tell you that 66 articles and counting and it isn't quite as much of an excitement! Actually, that's not quite true, it's always exciting to receive something new to test, but that excitement is quickly overwhelmed by the job of actually testing it! So I'd agree with you - confirmation bias is not something I'm suffering from when writing an article and I really really do try to be objective. 

All the best

 

[paul chiu]

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4 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hah! Spec sheets aren't always that objective either 🤣 - 

Although for most people it's a real treat to be loaned a camera to test by the manufacturer, I can tell you that 66 articles and counting and it isn't quite as much of an excitement! Actually, that's not quite true, it's always exciting to receive something new to test, but that excitement is quickly overwhelmed by the job of actually testing it! So I'd agree with you - confirmation bias is not something I'm suffering from when writing an article and I really really do try to be objective. 

All the best

 

Any idea what Leica and others do with the loaners?  Do they ever sell them at a discount or strict to R&D only?

As I await my Q3, now looking like November 2023 as I missed last week's first batch.

[elmars]

I think they give it to the Leica Academy. 

[Chris W]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:38 PM, jonoslack said:

Hmmm 

My copy is going back in the next few days - but I hope I was independent. If I'd bought a camera then there is a whole other bunch of confirmation psychology involved - in my case they've been sending cameras to test for nearly 20 years . . . and then I send them back. 

How do you define independent?

Probably someone who bought the camera TO review it. Used it for an extended period, then sold it.

The problem with review copies and the internet is that there is a lot of competition for views/likes etc. That's how reviewers earn a living. If you start giving unfavourable reviews, companies like Leica won't send you a review copy, or if they do they will send it to you weeks after (more favourable) reviewers have already posted their favourable reviews.

Over the last few years there have been dozens of new cameras reviewed by all the well known camera channels, and only months later have serious bugs and design flaws come to light (in real world usage). This does not serve the customer well.

[jonoslack]

8 hours ago, Chris W said:

Probably someone who bought the camera TO review it. Used it for an extended period, then sold it.

The problem with review copies and the internet is that there is a lot of competition for views/likes etc. That's how reviewers earn a living. If you start giving unfavourable reviews, companies like Leica won't send you a review copy, or if they do they will send it to you weeks after (more favourable) reviewers have already posted their favourable reviews.

Over the last few years there have been dozens of new cameras reviewed by all the well known camera channels, and only months later have serious bugs and design flaws come to light (in real world usage). This does not serve the customer well.

Hi Chris

good points all, but I’m not competing for likes, and Leica aren’t interested in my articles, they are interested in my skills testing new cameras. They would send me cameras to test anyway.

Indeed, I’m not ever sent review copies, Leica send pre-production cameras with beta firmware for test purposes, sometimes more than a year before the release date  

If you look on my website there are no ads or click throughs or scope for likes or comments. 
 

I don’t earn any money from it, let alone a living, and I don’t do workshops or sell photos as a spin-off. 
 

So does that make me independent? (Or just stupid!) 

 

[Chris W]

6 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

So does that make me independent? (Or just stupid!) 

 

I wasn't pointing a finger at you. You asked what would constitute an independent reviewer and for me the fact so many YouTubers are reliant on manufacturer loan cameras and NEED to have their review filmed, edited and published on the first day the manufacturer allows, definitely skews most towards not saying anything that upsets the manufacturer.

YouTubers generally ARE earning their living from review videos (in all kinds of gear; cameras, hi-fi, synthesisers etc) and the most viewed accounts all publish reviews on product launch and pretty much never say anything negative about the product. It's always 'amazing', a no brainer upgrade.

 

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Chris W said:

I wasn't pointing a finger at you. You asked what would constitute an independent reviewer and for me the fact so many YouTubers are reliant on manufacturer loan cameras and NEED to have their review filmed, edited and published on the first day the manufacturer allows, definitely skews most towards not saying anything that upsets the manufacturer.

YouTubers generally ARE earning their living from review videos (in all kinds of gear; cameras, hi-fi, synthesisers etc) and the most viewed accounts all publish reviews on product launch and pretty much never say anything negative about the product. It's always 'amazing', a no brainer upgrade.

 

Sorry Chris

I shouldn't have taken it as directed at me. I think you make very good points, there is a kind of ecosystem of reviewers and objectivity really isn't very high up on the priority list when trying to make a successful living from it. 

All the best

[Miltz]

On 6/7/2023 at 2:45 AM, jonoslack said:

Hi There Miltz

I do buy my cameras with my own money, which is why (you may have noticed) the Q3 is going back to Leica - because I didn't choose to buy it. If I bought everything I reviewed I'd be totally skint 🤣. I do recognise that quite a lot of camera companies allow their reviewers to keep the review equipment, sadly Leica doesn't do this!

I might reassure you that I don't have any contractual arrangement with Leica - they have never paid me for my work, and I don't get paid by anyone else either - I do it for fun (because I'm nuts my wife might say). Obviously after this amount of time I have good friends there - but my real purpose is to find out what's wrong with their kit.

Having a 20 year (well, let's be strictly honest, it's 16 years) relationship with them means that I understand them well (and their intentions), of course this is a double edged sword, and your point is certainly not taken personally - it's reasonable!

On the other hand, as a tester, I usually spend several months with a piece of equipment before reviewing it, and you might think that gives me a good insight. Not many people have that luxury before writing.

If you want more technical information then I recommend you go to Reidreviews.com where Sean goes into every little detail.

Anyway - I understand what you're saying, and I certainly didn't take it personally

All the very best

Jono

 

 

 

Sorry for the late response, we’ve been dealing was toxic air in my area. Jono, your words and tone tell me you’re a classy guy and conduct yourself with respect and I appreciate that. I never intended to insult you in any way, and I apologize if you felt insulted. I don’t doubt your knowledge or expertise in the least bit. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words.

When a new camera comes out companies give cameras to certain people as part as their PR for the launch. They know these reviews will be fantastic promotional pieces for them and insures a successful launch of their product. Canon Has explorers of light, Olympus has visionaries, Nikon has Ambassadors, Sony does as well. These reviews that come out on launch day are excellent promotional pieces. These companies aren’t going to give products to people to test ahead of launch if it’s going to negatively affect the launch. It’s bad business. I’ve never seen anyone one of the types of reviews be critical in anyway shape or form. Even if someone finds an issue they spin it into a positive. I only watch or read these articles just for entertainment and to get an overall view on new features etc. I don’t consider these reviews, they are promotional pieces. To the best of my knowledge these companies don’t pay them with money, what they do get is to test the latest and greatest for free, and most of them loan out this gear for a very very long period of time as a thank you. 

Obviously they get to publish the first reviews for the products which give them super exposure to their content which translates into a lot of money. This is where I was coming from when I said independent reviews. That may be the wrong vocabulary word, but I hope now you and everyone else knows what I mean. Thank you for your time. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Miltz

[paul chiu]

Speaking of "toxic air"

This is not Mars, but outside my kitchen window.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mhasman]

Wow! Reminds me my days in Israel when khamsin - dust storm - was coming. Got some "yellow city" photos there...

[Mikep996]

It's no different than reviews in magazines.  IF the magazine carries ads for a particular manufacturer, it is very unlikely that products from that manufacturer will receive anything but good reviews.  The opposite can also be true - giving poor reviews to a product because the manufacturer WON"T buy advertising space in the mag.  I have some personal experience seeing 'adjusted' test results for magazine reviews.    

Sometimes, it is possible to read between the lines on a favorable review if you get used to a certain reviewer's style but that's not something that should be required! 

 

[jonoslack]

15 hours ago, Miltz said:

Sorry for the late response, we’ve been dealing was toxic air in my area. Jono, your words and tone tell me you’re a classy guy and conduct yourself with respect and I appreciate that. I never intended to insult you in any way, and I apologize if you felt insulted. I don’t doubt your knowledge or expertise in the least bit. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words.

 

No harm done. I wasn’t even slightly offended (perhaps some were offended on my behalf 😳). 
I completely agree with you about ‘reviewers’. Leica has ‘ambassadors’ as well (I’m not one). 
FWIW I had the Q3 for more than 5 months  for testing before the launch. 
Whatever. @elmars has it, you get the best information by hang around and seeing what lots of people here say. At best my stuff is a component of that (and hopefully entertaining to read - that’s my main intent)

all the best
 

[Chaemono]

I find that Jono‘s reviews don’t sugarcoat things and they are quite objective with respect to the capability of a camera. Just look at his review of the M11 Monochrome. Between Jono and ReidReviews one gets a pretty good picture of how a new Leica camera compares to previous models. One‘s mileage may differ in practice. I’m still not convinced that the M11M is better at ISO 12500 and above than the M10M (not Jono‘s claim).

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[Chris W]

23 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

It's no different than reviews in magazines.  

 

This is true.

I have some experience with product manufacture, also going back to the pre-internet days. What I know is that magazines almost NEVER gave something a bad or even average review. What they DID do is not review something they didn't like. It was easier to do back then, because lots of products were released (like today) but many magazines were monthly issues, so they could cherry pick the products they were able to rave about and ignore the products they didn't like.

Now with the internet and especially Youtube, there is pressure on influencers (and reviewers) to post a video about every new product  in their field of 'expertise', whether that's cameras, music gear, computers, cars etc...

[Olaf_ZG]

10 hours ago, Chris W said:

 

Now with the internet and especially Youtube, there is pressure on influencers (and reviewers) to post a video about every new product  in their field of 'expertise', whether that's cameras, music gear, computers, cars etc...

Happily I am not the youngest and don’t get the thing about influencers.

The only thing influencing me to buy photo stuff is this site. I guess that makes @LUF Adminan influencer…