paul chiu Posted June 7, 2023 Share #141 Posted June 7, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 4 minutes ago, jonoslack said: Hah! Spec sheets aren't always that objective either 🤣 - Although for most people it's a real treat to be loaned a camera to test by the manufacturer, I can tell you that 66 articles and counting and it isn't quite as much of an excitement! Actually, that's not quite true, it's always exciting to receive something new to test, but that excitement is quickly overwhelmed by the job of actually testing it! So I'd agree with you - confirmation bias is not something I'm suffering from when writing an article and I really really do try to be objective. All the best Any idea what Leica and others do with the loaners? Do they ever sell them at a discount or strict to R&D only? As I await my Q3, now looking like November 2023 as I missed last week's first batch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 Hi paul chiu, Take a look here Jono Slack Review: The Leica Q3. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
elmars Posted June 7, 2023 Share #142 Posted June 7, 2023 I think they give it to the Leica Academy. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted June 7, 2023 Share #143 Posted June 7, 2023 6 hours ago, paul chiu said: Any idea what Leica and others do with the loaners? Do they ever sell them at a discount or strict to R&D only? As I await my Q3, now looking like November 2023 as I missed last week's first batch. I just sold mine to Gorlitz in Germany, so it will pop up soon (20% above retail) for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 8, 2023 Share #144 Posted June 8, 2023 On 6/6/2023 at 9:38 PM, jonoslack said: Hmmm My copy is going back in the next few days - but I hope I was independent. If I'd bought a camera then there is a whole other bunch of confirmation psychology involved - in my case they've been sending cameras to test for nearly 20 years . . . and then I send them back. How do you define independent? Probably someone who bought the camera TO review it. Used it for an extended period, then sold it. The problem with review copies and the internet is that there is a lot of competition for views/likes etc. That's how reviewers earn a living. If you start giving unfavourable reviews, companies like Leica won't send you a review copy, or if they do they will send it to you weeks after (more favourable) reviewers have already posted their favourable reviews. Over the last few years there have been dozens of new cameras reviewed by all the well known camera channels, and only months later have serious bugs and design flaws come to light (in real world usage). This does not serve the customer well. 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 8, 2023 Author Share #145 Posted June 8, 2023 8 hours ago, Chris W said: Probably someone who bought the camera TO review it. Used it for an extended period, then sold it. The problem with review copies and the internet is that there is a lot of competition for views/likes etc. That's how reviewers earn a living. If you start giving unfavourable reviews, companies like Leica won't send you a review copy, or if they do they will send it to you weeks after (more favourable) reviewers have already posted their favourable reviews. Over the last few years there have been dozens of new cameras reviewed by all the well known camera channels, and only months later have serious bugs and design flaws come to light (in real world usage). This does not serve the customer well. Hi Chris good points all, but I’m not competing for likes, and Leica aren’t interested in my articles, they are interested in my skills testing new cameras. They would send me cameras to test anyway. Indeed, I’m not ever sent review copies, Leica send pre-production cameras with beta firmware for test purposes, sometimes more than a year before the release date If you look on my website there are no ads or click throughs or scope for likes or comments. I don’t earn any money from it, let alone a living, and I don’t do workshops or sell photos as a spin-off. So does that make me independent? (Or just stupid!) 8 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 8, 2023 Share #146 Posted June 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, jonoslack said: So does that make me independent? (Or just stupid!) I wasn't pointing a finger at you. You asked what would constitute an independent reviewer and for me the fact so many YouTubers are reliant on manufacturer loan cameras and NEED to have their review filmed, edited and published on the first day the manufacturer allows, definitely skews most towards not saying anything that upsets the manufacturer. YouTubers generally ARE earning their living from review videos (in all kinds of gear; cameras, hi-fi, synthesisers etc) and the most viewed accounts all publish reviews on product launch and pretty much never say anything negative about the product. It's always 'amazing', a no brainer upgrade. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 8, 2023 Author Share #147 Posted June 8, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, Chris W said: I wasn't pointing a finger at you. You asked what would constitute an independent reviewer and for me the fact so many YouTubers are reliant on manufacturer loan cameras and NEED to have their review filmed, edited and published on the first day the manufacturer allows, definitely skews most towards not saying anything that upsets the manufacturer. YouTubers generally ARE earning their living from review videos (in all kinds of gear; cameras, hi-fi, synthesisers etc) and the most viewed accounts all publish reviews on product launch and pretty much never say anything negative about the product. It's always 'amazing', a no brainer upgrade. Sorry Chris I shouldn't have taken it as directed at me. I think you make very good points, there is a kind of ecosystem of reviewers and objectivity really isn't very high up on the priority list when trying to make a successful living from it. All the best 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltz Posted June 8, 2023 Share #148 Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) On 6/7/2023 at 2:45 AM, jonoslack said: Hi There Miltz I do buy my cameras with my own money, which is why (you may have noticed) the Q3 is going back to Leica - because I didn't choose to buy it. If I bought everything I reviewed I'd be totally skint 🤣. I do recognise that quite a lot of camera companies allow their reviewers to keep the review equipment, sadly Leica doesn't do this! I might reassure you that I don't have any contractual arrangement with Leica - they have never paid me for my work, and I don't get paid by anyone else either - I do it for fun (because I'm nuts my wife might say). Obviously after this amount of time I have good friends there - but my real purpose is to find out what's wrong with their kit. Having a 20 year (well, let's be strictly honest, it's 16 years) relationship with them means that I understand them well (and their intentions), of course this is a double edged sword, and your point is certainly not taken personally - it's reasonable! On the other hand, as a tester, I usually spend several months with a piece of equipment before reviewing it, and you might think that gives me a good insight. Not many people have that luxury before writing. If you want more technical information then I recommend you go to Reidreviews.com where Sean goes into every little detail. Anyway - I understand what you're saying, and I certainly didn't take it personally All the very best Jono Sorry for the late response, we’ve been dealing was toxic air in my area. Jono, your words and tone tell me you’re a classy guy and conduct yourself with respect and I appreciate that. I never intended to insult you in any way, and I apologize if you felt insulted. I don’t doubt your knowledge or expertise in the least bit. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words. When a new camera comes out companies give cameras to certain people as part as their PR for the launch. They know these reviews will be fantastic promotional pieces for them and insures a successful launch of their product. Canon Has explorers of light, Olympus has visionaries, Nikon has Ambassadors, Sony does as well. These reviews that come out on launch day are excellent promotional pieces. These companies aren’t going to give products to people to test ahead of launch if it’s going to negatively affect the launch. It’s bad business. I’ve never seen anyone one of the types of reviews be critical in anyway shape or form. Even if someone finds an issue they spin it into a positive. I only watch or read these articles just for entertainment and to get an overall view on new features etc. I don’t consider these reviews, they are promotional pieces. To the best of my knowledge these companies don’t pay them with money, what they do get is to test the latest and greatest for free, and most of them loan out this gear for a very very long period of time as a thank you. Obviously they get to publish the first reviews for the products which give them super exposure to their content which translates into a lot of money. This is where I was coming from when I said independent reviews. That may be the wrong vocabulary word, but I hope now you and everyone else knows what I mean. Thank you for your time. Edited June 8, 2023 by Miltz 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul chiu Posted June 8, 2023 Share #149 Posted June 8, 2023 Speaking of "toxic air" This is not Mars, but outside my kitchen window. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 10 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/377414-jono-slack-review-the-leica-q3/?do=findComment&comment=4790143'>More sharing options...
mhasman Posted June 8, 2023 Share #150 Posted June 8, 2023 Wow! Reminds me my days in Israel when khamsin - dust storm - was coming. Got some "yellow city" photos there... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep996 Posted June 9, 2023 Share #151 Posted June 9, 2023 It's no different than reviews in magazines. IF the magazine carries ads for a particular manufacturer, it is very unlikely that products from that manufacturer will receive anything but good reviews. The opposite can also be true - giving poor reviews to a product because the manufacturer WON"T buy advertising space in the mag. I have some personal experience seeing 'adjusted' test results for magazine reviews. Sometimes, it is possible to read between the lines on a favorable review if you get used to a certain reviewer's style but that's not something that should be required! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share #152 Posted June 9, 2023 15 hours ago, Miltz said: Sorry for the late response, we’ve been dealing was toxic air in my area. Jono, your words and tone tell me you’re a classy guy and conduct yourself with respect and I appreciate that. I never intended to insult you in any way, and I apologize if you felt insulted. I don’t doubt your knowledge or expertise in the least bit. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my words. No harm done. I wasn’t even slightly offended (perhaps some were offended on my behalf 😳). I completely agree with you about ‘reviewers’. Leica has ‘ambassadors’ as well (I’m not one). FWIW I had the Q3 for more than 5 months for testing before the launch. Whatever. @elmars has it, you get the best information by hang around and seeing what lots of people here say. At best my stuff is a component of that (and hopefully entertaining to read - that’s my main intent) all the best 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 10, 2023 Share #153 Posted June 10, 2023 I find that Jono‘s reviews don’t sugarcoat things and they are quite objective with respect to the capability of a camera. Just look at his review of the M11 Monochrome. Between Jono and ReidReviews one gets a pretty good picture of how a new Leica camera compares to previous models. One‘s mileage may differ in practice. I’m still not convinced that the M11M is better at ISO 12500 and above than the M10M (not Jono‘s claim). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 10, 2023 Share #154 Posted June 10, 2023 23 hours ago, Mikep996 said: It's no different than reviews in magazines. This is true. I have some experience with product manufacture, also going back to the pre-internet days. What I know is that magazines almost NEVER gave something a bad or even average review. What they DID do is not review something they didn't like. It was easier to do back then, because lots of products were released (like today) but many magazines were monthly issues, so they could cherry pick the products they were able to rave about and ignore the products they didn't like. Now with the internet and especially Youtube, there is pressure on influencers (and reviewers) to post a video about every new product in their field of 'expertise', whether that's cameras, music gear, computers, cars etc... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olaf_ZG Posted June 10, 2023 Share #155 Posted June 10, 2023 10 hours ago, Chris W said: Now with the internet and especially Youtube, there is pressure on influencers (and reviewers) to post a video about every new product in their field of 'expertise', whether that's cameras, music gear, computers, cars etc... Happily I am not the youngest and don’t get the thing about influencers. The only thing influencing me to buy photo stuff is this site. I guess that makes @LUF Adminan influencer… 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul chiu Posted June 10, 2023 Share #156 Posted June 10, 2023 On 6/7/2023 at 4:32 PM, Steven said: I just sold mine to Gorlitz in Germany, so it will pop up soon (20% above retail) for sale. No used Leica Q3 yet here in the USA. At least from what I see at authorized Leica US dealers. Nothing on EBAY either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBlunder Posted June 11, 2023 Share #157 Posted June 11, 2023 Lots of fair points but, as I think somebody else pointed out... the bottom line is that you need to find a reviewer that you trust. There are a thousand ways to discount a reviewer's opinion (most obvious being that, theoretically, Leica might "cut off" a beta-reviewer who doesn't recommend their product, and said reviewer, again theoretically, might be afraid of losing either some income via YouTube views or the undeniably cool privilege of secretly getting new merch before it's released to the masses). Similarly, somebody who bought the camera with their own $ (vs. getting it for free) obviously has some confirmation bias. I actually find negative reviews to be the most interesting to watch. One example that comes to mind is Samuel Streetlife's "watch this before you buy the q2" video (linked below). I ended up buying a Q2 anyway (😅) but this video was valuable and interesting nonetheless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBlunder Posted June 11, 2023 Share #158 Posted June 11, 2023 On 6/1/2023 at 9:56 AM, nick h said: I still would like a separate 75mm version of a Q (Qt - for telephoto - or different letter) and then there is a proper combo that one can shoot with to get the job done properly. I just can't use digital zoom with losing resolution. Certainly not for a client when working. A 28mm and a 75mm would be great. A number of pro photographers I have come across using Q or Q2s have agreed with me on this and said they would love one. Then they wouldn't have to lug around a Nikon, Canon etc. with a longer lens. (I use a Nikon with a 85mm f1.4). Whilst two cameras is a bit of a hassle, it does mean that there is the consistency of image quality, and size and weight advantages. Any thoughts, anyone? Curious, for those that use any of the Q's in a "pro" (i.e. paid) setting, how much does it bother you only having one SD card slot and no internal memory? Obviously it's extremely unlikely (has never happened to me since I've had my Q2) but, theoretically, you may find after a wedding (or other "not happening again" event) that your SD card was corrupted or broken, in which case your client will be devastated. At that point it's not even about the money. Of course, having two SD card slots (like in basically all the other brands' "pro" cameras) makes the "very unlikely" situation more of a "virtually impossible" situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 11, 2023 Share #159 Posted June 11, 2023 6 hours ago, SirBlunder said: Similarly, somebody who bought the camera with their own $ (vs. getting it for free) obviously has some confirmation bias. Not if they buy gear to review. There is a huge difference between actual independent reviewing (not using the patronage of manufacturers) and people who buy a camera, then post their thoughts about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted June 11, 2023 Share #160 Posted June 11, 2023 Like zis? https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/all-reviews/hi-fi-reviews/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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