Voigtlander 35mm 1.4 Nokton Classic v2 - “less modern” rendering?

[skilar]

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33 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I didn't think too much about it tbh, since I saw online the difference wasn't major between both SC & MC. Since I use the cron v1 for b&w I thought the Nokton would be more for color work, that's why the MC. The flare resistance is definitely better than the pre lux & SR remake on the MC.

SR remake, I've already shared in a few threads but basically the original was one of my favorite leica lens & the remake is quite different from the original in terms of size & functionality, which disappointed me. The attention to detail from Leica on this remake was also not there with QC issues, no marketing, crappy hood, case as a regular lens, etc. Compared to the other reissues that really tried to replicate & pay an homage to the original, the SR was way off. Changing from e41 to e46, not allowing the use of filter & hood at the same time, all of this combined were deal breakers for me. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It sounds like your disappointment in the SR remake wasn't so much optical but everything else about the lens. Very understandable, particularly if you already shoot the original. I've been reading those threads about the hood, pretty dumb on Leica's part. Also, considering how much more one pays for the SR compared to the Nokton, the attention to detail should be there from Leica. Sure, the remake isn't the price of an original, but nevertheless.

17 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

My reason to go for the MC version is that I can always slap a BPM filter or similar for a more dreamy look, or use it without filters when I want to avail of the MC benefits. 
Yes I know a filter is not the same, but it was the right compromise for me

That's a great point. As you say, not exactly the same, but a little more versatile nonetheless. These lenses are outside my current wheelhouse, pretty different to the style I currently shoot, but I'm interested in stretching myself. MC could be the way to go in case I find the dreamy quality doesn't suit me. Sometimes you appreciate a style from others but can't quite get it to work for yourself.

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, skilar said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It sounds like your disappointment in the SR remake wasn't so much optical but everything else about the lens. Very understandable, particularly if you already shoot the original. I've been reading those threads about the hood, pretty dumb on Leica's part. Also, considering how much more one pays for the SR compared to the Nokton, the attention to detail should be there from Leica. Sure, the remake isn't the price of an original, but nevertheless.

That's a great point. As you say, not exactly the same, but a little more versatile nonetheless. These lenses are outside my current wheelhouse, pretty different to the style I currently shoot, but I'm interested in stretching myself. MC could be the way to go in case I find the dreamy quality doesn't suit me. Sometimes you appreciate a style from others but can't quite get it to work for yourself.

Yeah when I started out with Leica about 10 years ago I was shooting mainly ASPH and was shocked when I used a pre-asph lens, and didn’t appreciate it at the time…fast forward to 1 or 2 years later, and I never bought an ASPH lens again and I’ve been shooting lens from the 1950s~70s, and all my favorite leica lenses are from this period. At this point though, they are either too expensive or hard to find in good condition, that’s why I was loving Leica remakes, and they did a great job with the noctilux and summaron. If you want to see if you’ll enjoy the dreamy rendering, buying the voigtlander is a great option since it’s cheap and it’s as close to a pre-asph lux as you can get, while being much sharper wide open though, so it might even suit you better. Another suggestion is the LLL remake of the 8 elements (my favorite 35 alongside the SR). The pre-asph lux does glow a lot, and it looks much better (in my opinion) in B&W. At first you might react like me, surprised by the softness wide open and even sell it off, but if you start to enjoy / miss the classic rendering, you will want those kind of lenses again…

[Smudgerer]

I have both the SR re-issue and the Nokton 1.4 SC 35's and like them both for slightly different reasons. All lens "looks" are subjective and entirely dependent one one's personal reasons to buy or use one lens over another, so I will not go into that here.............However I do find that the haptics of the Nokton are preferable to me, it is just better laid out than the Summilux, and it does come without the lenshood / filter dramas that have plagued Leica's reissue, so there is that too.

[skilar]

49 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Yeah when I started out with Leica about 10 years ago I was shooting mainly ASPH and was shocked when I used a pre-asph lens, and didn’t appreciate it at the time…fast forward to 1 or 2 years later, and I never bought an ASPH lens again and I’ve been shooting lens from the 1950s~70s, and all my favorite leica lenses are from this period. At this point though, they are either too expensive or hard to find in good condition, that’s why I was loving Leica remakes, and they did a great job with the noctilux and summaron. If you want to see if you’ll enjoy the dreamy rendering, buying the voigtlander is a great option since it’s cheap and it’s as close to a pre-asph lux as you can get, while being much sharper wide open though, so it might even suit you better. Another suggestion is the LLL remake of the 8 elements (my favorite 35 alongside the SR). The pre-asph lux does glow a lot, and it looks much better (in my opinion) in B&W. At first you might react like me, surprised by the softness wide open and even sell it off, but if you start to enjoy / miss the classic rendering, you will want those kind of lenses again…

It's funny how our tastes and preferences change with time. I'm expecting I won't know exactly how to use any of these lenses wide open at the beginning. It'll certainly take some time to get used to one. I do have a selection of the Mandler R lenses from the 70s. Certainly not the same as the lenses we're discussing, but also not as clinical as the modern ASPH glass.

Funny that you mention the LLL remake of the 8 elements, as I have it open in another tab. I plan on shooting these mostly in black and white, which I've been missing lately. We'll see which one I end up with. Thanks again for your insight!

[shirubadanieru]

27 minutes ago, Steven said:

Daniel, I’ve loved the 35 Nokton 1.4 for years. It was my first leica lens. I actually prefer it to the SR wide open on film as it gives more center sharpness. I also always loved the famous ring flare that the nokton produces and I find it much more controllable from the flare of the SR. 
I actually now use the v1 because Map camera made a special edition in silver brass that ressembles the SR a lot, and feels so well built. You should check it out, since you live close to them. 

 

 

Ah nice yeah that mapcamera version was beautifully made, agree! It’s quite hard to find now, but I have seen it a few times. Yeah great to hear you love it too since we both have similar taste in rendering : ) Will shoot with it more but so far very happy with the results. 

[hansvons]

9 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Given my disappointment with the SR remake and still wanting a small f1.4 lens, I bought the Nokton VII MC and took it with me to Hong Kong. I was really impressed with its rendering!!

Yes. A formidable little lens. Much underrated. I have a little history with this lens. Perhaps it helps to understand what it can and cannot do.

I didn't own the SR re-issue. So I cannot comment on that. But I bought the Nokton II MC 2 years ago because I was looking for a little, affordable "party/event" lens that turned my SL2-S somewhat into a 35mm Q. Ultimately, I sold it after a year and a couple of events because I didn't like the rendering on the SL2-S. Vignetting was too strong at full aperture until f 4,0; corners were super smeary, colours too cold, and so on. 

At some point, I realised that shooting on film is my future (at least for everything that is meant to last), and I acquired two M film cameras. I also purchased a 35mm Summicron ASPH. When comparing the Summicron's performance on film vs digital, I learned that the performance at open aperture was visibly better on film in every regard. Because 35mm is my preferred focal length, I needed a second 35mm lens. Buying another Summciron ASPH would have made sense but seemed a bit boring, and I figured I wanted a lens with the classic quirks from the 60ies and 70ies for the moodier images. 

Long story short, I gave the 35mm Nokton II another chance, but in the single-coated SC version for more flaring this time because I hoped that all the stuff I didn't like would magically go away on film. And it did. 

The Voigtländer 35mm Nokton 1,4 SC lens is a brilliant copy of the early 35mm Summiluxes. The built quality is at least on par. Just don't use it on digital sensors. As always, YMMV.

[RexGig0]

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Even though I managed to source an available Steel Rim 2022 “Re-issue” Summilux, last month, I still plan to add the MC and/or SC Nokton f/1.4 II, sooner or later. I would like to eventually do some long-term side-by-side shooting. (And, probably, keep all of them. They do not eat much.) I have all but ruled-out ever paying almost $3K US for a pre-owned Summilux-M 35mm, Version II, pre-ASPH, after testing a really clean, truly clear, well-preserved sample, during two visits, at a large camera store. (Houston Camera Exchange, in Houston, Texas.) I was also trying their demonstrator Summilux-M 35mm ASPH FLE, (not the FLE II,) and my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1,4 ZM, to keep myself grounded, while trying the Seventies-vintage Summilux Version II. I had the memory, and my test shots, from having tried the Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.4 MC, about six months earlier, though in a coffee shop, in nearby Sugar Land, Texas.

My budget being $4K, maximum, I was very wary of paying almost $3K US, plus the hefty local sales tax, for a Seventies-vintage lens, no matter how clean and well preserved, especially after having been quite impressed with the Nokton f/1.4 II MC. Notably, I am not one to prefer too much glow, or too much dreaminess, in a 35mm lens. Such things are more likely to be desirable, in my personal case, in a 50mm or short telephoto lens. (I do have a Thambar-M 90mm, for example.) The Seventies-vintage Summilux was just too soft, wide-open, and when stopped-down, was nothing special, being quite “modern” and very sharp. Notably, I loved the handling of the FLE, and I soon looked on-line, to take a look at the going prices for well-preserved, pre-owned FLE lenses. It seemed a better idea to buy one or both of the MC and SC II Noktons. Fortunately, for my budget, I bought no lenses, before the 2022 Steel Rim became available.

I had been on the e-mail notification list, with Leica USA, in NJ, or so I thought, but had not received a notification, when I happened to click on the saved link, and saw that I could add a new Steel Rim to my cart. I did so. Thus far, I am happy with my purchase. Multiple home maintenance and repair projects, plus the infernal, persistent “heat dome” conditions, have largely curtailed my photography, lately, but the few shots I have taken, of mundane things in the neighborhood, are encouraging. Non-aspheric, but modern. I like it. The Single-Coated Nokton might be the one to better complement the Steel Rim, which is presumably multi-coated. 

[lct]

6 hours ago, hansvons said:

The Voigtländer 35mm Nokton 1,4 SC lens is a brilliant copy of the early 35mm Summiluxes. The built quality is at least on par. Just don't use it on digital sensors [...]

With too much flare and focus shift, the Nokton 35/1.4 SC v1 was not brilliant at all in my digital experience (none with film) but v2 of the same lens works fine on all my digital sensors, M240, M11, Kolari mod Sony A7r2 and Leica digital CL. Below on M11 and digital CL Build quality looks fine but only time will tell if it can compete with my Summilux 35/1.4 v2 in half a century on this ground. FWIW.

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Edited August 10, 2023 by lct

[ocean2059]

I like both 35/1.4 Nokton Classic v2 (SC) and 40/1.4 (SC) very much, especially, on Monochrom digital bodies. I find that the 35/1.4 NC v2 (SC) is sharper and renders a bit cleaner that that of Summilux 35 pre-ASPH v2 wide open, whereas the 40/1.4 NC (SC) has about similar sharpness than that of Leica.

In term of optical design, the 35/1.4 NC has an 8-element design configuration similar to the Leica Summicron 35 v1 (8-element) design, and of course with f/1.4. The 40/1.4 NC, on the other hand, has a 7-element design similar to both Leica Summilux 35 pre-ASPH and Summicron 35 v4.

[madNbad]

15 hours ago, hansvons said:

The Voigtländer 35mm Nokton 1,4 SC lens is a brilliant copy of the early 35mm Summiluxes. The built quality is at least on par. Just don't use it on digital sensors. As always, YMMV.

I bought the SC version to pair with my M4-2. The only problem I have is the new version of the 28 2.8 Color Skopar just arrived and it'll be hard to choose between them. I love the little Nokton! Never owned a fast 35 for either the SLR's or any rangefinder, it's nice to have those extra stops compared to the 2.0 or 2.8 lenses I've used over the years. This lens is meant to be paired with a film body.

 

M4, Voigtlander 35 1.4 Nokton Classic SC V2, Tri-X @ ISO 200, Rodinal 50:1:

 

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[hansvons]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

+1 ! 

It plays nice with the M10, but surprisingly it was a poor performer on the SL2-S.

So what do we make out of that realisation? 

Isn't the SL2-S sensor as optimised for M lenses as advertised after all? 

BTW, similar things can be said about the 35mm Summicron ASPH, albeit to a much lesser extent. That lens is superb on film (eg for crisp Delta 100 images) but only good/ok on the SL2-S. No wonder, it was designed for the film Ms. 

Fortunately, I have a set of fine R primes for the SL2-S which spectacularly holds its own in many ways.

[hansvons]

I recently shot this image on the 35mm Nokton V2 SC @ f1,4. Please note the absence of heavy vignetting (lower left corner). On a DSLR, the heavy vignetting of the Nokton on digital sensors would render this image unusable (BG would be primarily black except for the bokeh balls). 

Kodak 5219 at box speed (ISO 500), exposed half a stop too thin (you typically would rate this stock IE 320, especially when shooting night exteriors).  

 

Click to enlarge.

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Edited August 11, 2023 by hansvons

[pippy]

22 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

...the voigtlander is a great option since it’s cheap and it’s as close to a pre-asph lux as you can get, while being much sharper wide open though, so it might even suit you better. Another suggestion is the LLL remake of the 8 elements.......The pre-asph lux does glow a lot, and it looks much better (in my opinion) in B&W...…

+1.

As is well-known these old Summiluxes do glow quite a lot wide open. Once we get below to f2.8/ f4 the performance of the LLL '8-Element' is an almost perfect match to the Summilux and at f2 it renders in a more neutral manner which, I agree, might be more to the liking of the OP.

I passed on the 35mm f1.4 Nokton v1 not because of the focus-shift but because of the pronounced barrel-distortion. I believe both of these issues were addressed to a great extent with the release of the v2. I do, however, have the 40mm f1.4 Nokton (MC) and absolutely love it.

Philip.

Edited August 11, 2023 by pippy

[sometimesmaybe]

i have the v2 SC version for my m246

it's easily sharp enough wide open for portraits. nice little lens ✨

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[madNbad]

1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

I’m about to sell my 28 Ultron II and replace it with this lens. 

I’ve made a choice not to buy any more ASPH lenses. My favorite daily lens is the 50 Cron and the 60’s-70’s lenses are more appealing to me than the more corrected modern lenses. 

This lens being 35mm will make a better companion to my 50mm and the rendering will be in the same sort of style as the Mandler lenses. 

As for this Nokton it’s vintage style without beating you over the head with it. Just enough not to take over the whole image. As you close it down it’ll be hard to tell it apart from a Summilux ASPH. 
 

Every lens manufacturer has a classic gem in their lineup. Voigtlander has a bunch of them but this Nokton 35f1.4 in the style of the old Summilux lenses, I would say is an even better buy than a steel rim. Even if they cost the same. But this being $550 new vs an insane amount for a vintage Summilux or even the KOB, this lens should be the first lens anyone with a Leica buys.

It’s so good the official Leica Instagram account used a Leica M photo with a 35f1.4 Nokton mounted! 

If you decide to replace your Ultron with another 28mm, take a look at the new Voigtlander 28 2.8 Color Skopar. It’s tiny and a great performer. There’s a good review of it on the Fred Miranda forum.

Glad you like the Nokton and welcome to the forum!

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

As you close it down it’ll be hard to tell it apart from a Summilux ASPH. 

On film, absolutely, yes. On a digital M, I don't know. On the SLs, the ASPH is the much better lens, even stopped down, in any regard, including soul. The 35mm Summicron ASPH is an underrated lens. It's not clinical, it flares nicely, albeit you must provoke it, and it has the same bent focal plane at the full aperture as the Nokton, SR etc., only that the corners are pronouncedly shaper, which makes this effect even more interesting. 

Welcome to this forum!

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, hansvons said:

On film, absolutely, yes. On a digital M, I don't know. On the SLs, the ASPH is the much better lens, even stopped down, in any regard, including soul. The 35mm Summicron ASPH is an underrated lens. It's not clinical, it flares nicely, albeit you must provoke it, and it has the same bent focal plane at the full aperture as the Nokton, SR etc., only that the corners are pronouncedly shaper, which makes this effect even more interesting. 

Welcome to this forum!

And you have to love high levels of global contrast to love the 35mm Summicron. I sold mine due to this as well as too clinical sharp look on digital M sensors. MOO

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Multicoated said:

I actually wanted a Summicron v4,...

Great post. Can very well relate to everything you say. Only I'm a 35mm guy. 

 

2 hours ago, Multicoated said:

Since then I’ve grown to get over the “Leica” thing. And I’ve also learned I’m a 50mm shooter and I prefer “character” over sharpness and perfection. 

This.

 

2 hours ago, Multicoated said:

There’s a used cron ASPH v1 for a nice price, but looking at the results of the Nokton I’ll get exactly what I want with a brand new Nokton at $550 bucks. 

I sometimes need a 35mm lens with excellent corner-to-corner sharpness for those landscape shots at infinity that happen occasionally, which the Nokton V2 SC does much better on film than I initially anticipated. The other remarkable virtue of the 35mm Summicron ASPH is how flatteringly it renders faces. This is a Leica thing. The 50mm V4/5 show the same treat. But as it happens the Nokton renders faces similarly favourably, less egg-shaped than its little Color Skopar sibling. 

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, MadsP said:

I sold mine due to this as well as too clinical sharp look on digital M sensors.

I hear this often and can see that. From my experience, much of a clinical look comes from texture-free digital images that were shot at low ISO. Add to that a high perceived sharpness you will get what you don't want. A lens with soul and character helps that, but I find that not fearing texture, aka noise, helps even more. But this is a discussion for another thread.

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[pippy]

6 hours ago, Multicoated said:

...I only drew the line at the light lens lab lenses because of the giant red CHINA in the front. Im still a bit of a snob...

The "giant red CHINA in the front"...

Really?

Here's mine;

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But Hey; whatever floats your boat. No skin off my nose either way, Hope you are happy!

Philip.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by pippy