SL3 Rumors

[LBJ2]

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9 hours ago, beewee said:

According to Panasonic at least, PDAF is less demanding than DFD on lens AF motors. So any DFD AF lens will be more than capable of responsive PDAF.

I've been wondering about this myself. Where can I read up on this "PDAF is less demanding than DFD on lens AF motors." ? 

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I've been wondering about this myself. Where can I read up on this "PDAF is less demanding than DFD on lens AF motors." ? 

DFD moves the focus plane very quickly back and forth to find the highest contrast. PDAF uses a best-guess strategy to move the elements once (at which point most cameras switch to CDAF for fine focus if there is enough time). 

[beewee]

6 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I've been wondering about this myself. Where can I read up on this "PDAF is less demanding than DFD on lens AF motors." ? 

It was somewhere in this talk: 

 

[beewee]

10 hours ago, frame-it said:

probably 1st quarter of next year, the Type 8262, [a Hybrid Instant camera] is possibly coming first later this year

If I had to guess, it’s probably Leica’s take on the Instax Mini EVO but with a twist that might use the FOTOs app with Leica Looks.

[Geoff C. Bassett]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:14 AM, beewee said:

IMX455 has a pretty slow readout compared to most other camera sensors on the market. The jello effect in video is quite apparent on the A7Riv, A7Rv, and Q3, all of which uses some variant of the IMX455.

If Leica were to design the SL3 for high resolution photography and an SL3-S optimized for video, the IMX455 would fit the bill for the SL3 but the choices are more limited for the SL3-S. For low-light, high ISO performance, high burst-rate, fast readout sensors there still isn’t all that many options available. The one in the SL2-S, S5, and the PDAF variant in the S5ii is still probably the best compromise seen to date unless Leica can get their hands on whatever sensor is in the Sony A7iv.

If Leica were to make a no-compromise, price-be-damned, do everything SL3, they would probably go with the sensor in the Sony A1 but that’s assuming Sony would be willing to sell them that sensor. The A1 sensor would also cost a hell of a lot of money which would likely drive up the cost of the SL3 by at least a couple thousand dollars. Probably in the $9-10k USD range, priced similar or slightly higher than the M11 or M11 Monochrome. I don’t know if that many SL system owners would be willing to drop that kind of money for a no-compromise SL3.

Yes sorry I mistyped. IMX366 would be my preferred sensor due to the faster readout.

[SrMi]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:32 PM, Geoff C. Bassett said:

Yes sorry I mistyped. IMX366 would be my preferred sensor due to the faster readout.

I wish SL3 would allow switching to 12-bit mode when a faster readout is required.

Edited June 11, 2023 by SrMi

[anickpick]

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Am 4.6.2023 um 14:14 schrieb beewee:

IMX455 has a pretty slow readout compared to most other camera sensors on the market. The jello effect in video is quite apparent on the A7Riv, A7Rv, and Q3, all of which uses some variant of the IMX455.

If Leica were to design the SL3 for high resolution photography and an SL3-S optimized for video, the IMX455 would fit the bill for the SL3 but the choices are more limited for the SL3-S. For low-light, high ISO performance, high burst-rate, fast readout sensors there still isn’t all that many options available. The one in the SL2-S, S5, and the PDAF variant in the S5ii is still probably the best compromise seen to date unless Leica can get their hands on whatever sensor is in the Sony A7iv.

If Leica were to make a no-compromise, price-be-damned, do everything SL3, they would probably go with the sensor in the Sony A1 but that’s assuming Sony would be willing to sell them that sensor. The A1 sensor would also cost a hell of a lot of money which would likely drive up the cost of the SL3 by at least a couple thousand dollars. Probably in the $9-10k USD range, priced similar or slightly higher than the M11 or M11 Monochrome. I don’t know if that many SL system owners would be willing to drop that kind of money for a no-compromise SL3.

 

To convince me to buy an SL3, it will need to have a much improved CAF and a very fast stacked sensor (similar to the one in the Sony A1 or Nikon Z8).

Edited July 10, 2023 by anickpick

[beewee]

1 hour ago, anickpick said:

 

To convince me to buy an SL3, it will need to have a much improved CAF and a very fast stacked sensor (similar to the one in the Sony A1 or Nikon Z8).

I doubt you’ll get a stacked sensor but Leica can prove me wrong.

All that said, I’d expect the price of the SL3 to go up significantly if it came with a stacked sensor. Probably $3-4k USD more than the current price of the SL2. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I'd happily pay that extra if it did have a stacked sensor. The A1 sensor in an SL body would be sublime.

Gordon

[trickness]

It seems that the most logical prediction is that the SL3 will evolve in a similar way that the Q3 did - 60 megapixels, BSI sensor, flip screen, multi resolution, improved EVF. Which would make me quite happy, because I would feel in no way inclined to upgrade and used prices for SL2/2S will drop like a rock and I’ll be able to get a back up of my favorite camera of all time at a fraction of the price of the SL3.

But who knows…. maybe they’ll surprise us somehow!

Edited July 21, 2023 by trickness

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, trickness said:

would feel in no way inclined to upgrade and used prices for SL2/2S will drop like a rock

I wouldn't count on it. The original SL still sells for very strong prices; higher than a more recent Sony a9, for instance.

I think it's just as likely that an SL3 will increase overall demand for L-Mount cameras and lenses.

[trickness]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

I wouldn't count on it. The original SL still sells for very strong prices; higher than a more recent Sony a9, for instance.

I think it's just as likely that an SL3 will increase overall demand for L-Mount cameras and lenses.

🙄 OK, so the endless original SLs I see for under 2K USD (good ones as low as $1750), and the three month old SL2-S I was just offered for $3200 with the Leica M adapter are just my imagination? In what market definition are these strong prices? And the SL3 isn't even out yet.

Current M10M and Q2 used prices are relevant here -  (two platforms with a far greater user base than the SL system). I can get a good used M10M all day long for $5500 and Q2s are going for $3500 or less in good condition, used SL2 cameras will be no different unless we're talking silver or Reporter versions.

 

[BernardC]

9 minutes ago, trickness said:

OK, so the endless original SLs I see for under 2K USD (good ones as low as $1750), and the three month old SL2-S I was just offered for $3200 with the Leica M adapter are just my imagination? In what market definition are these strong prices? And the SL3 isn't even out yet.

I checked B&H, because they have a good selection from most brands. That makes it much easier to compare (for instance) Leica and Sony resale values. I'll admit I was surprised to find that the a9, which is a more recent and "more advanced" camera, can't match SL residuals. Admittedly, B&H don't usually offer the lowest used prices.

It's not uncommon to find better used prices from non-Leica dealers. They want a quick flip, but they can't offer the same level of support and inventory.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

Current M10M and Q2 used prices are relevant here -  (two platforms with a far greater user base than the SL system). I can get a good used M10M all day long for $5500 and Q2s are going for $3500 or less in good condition, used SL2 cameras will be no different unless we're talking silver or Reporter versions.

 

That is what i see too. the M10M was going for 6-7k before the M11M came out, and not down to 5k's

B&H is not a good use price reference, their prices don't reflect direct sales.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

B&H is not a good use price reference, their prices don't reflect direct sales.

I don't know what that means. I've purchased from them directly in the past.

3 hours ago, trickness said:

three month old SL2-S I was just offered for $3200 with the Leica M adapter

That's a great deal. Where was it, and do they have more at that price?

[trickness]

24 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I don't know what that means. I've purchased from them directly in the past.

That's a great deal. Where was it, and do they have more at that price?

Dealers are always going to charge 25 to 30% more for the “benefit” of buying from them. I buy used from private sellers who I am familiar with, who have good reputations, and I pay with PayPal exclusively so I have buyer protection.

Used SL2-S routinely go for less than $3500 on the private market. Look around.

[trickness]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

I checked B&H, because they have a good selection from most brands. That makes it much easier to compare (for instance) Leica and Sony resale values. I'll admit I was surprised to find that the a9, which is a more recent and "more advanced" camera, can't match SL residuals. Admittedly, B&H don't usually offer the lowest used prices.

It's not uncommon to find better used prices from non-Leica dealers. They want a quick flip, but they can't offer the same level of support and inventory.

Another note on “dealer support” - if your camera isn’t working properly when you buy it, you can return it to them. If a private seller sells you something that’s not working properly, you can file a claim and get your money back - same end result although one might be easier depending on the private seller’s integrity.

”Dealer support” for anything Leica that breaks begins and ends with them giving you contact info for Leica NJ, who will then send your camera off to Wetzlar. I don’t see a value add there and I speak from personal experience 

[BernardC]

4 minutes ago, trickness said:

”Dealer support” for anything Leica that breaks begins and ends with them giving you contact info for Leica NJ, who will then send your camera off to Wetzlar. I don’t see a value add there and I speak from personal experience 

Sorry to hear that. I've had dealers refund me on the spot, or exchange a defective product, or deal with Leica on my behalf (in that case it was an S System lens that needed a new AF gear). I guess that not all dealers act that way.

22 minutes ago, trickness said:

Dealers are always going to charge 25 to 30% more for the “benefit” of buying from them. I buy used from private sellers

Yes, dealers generally charge more. I used a dealer example because it's easier to look-up. The point remains that an SL (which came-out in 2015) is worth more than a newer a9, even though the a9 initially sold for a similar price (as far as I can tell, I know how much I paid for a new SL, but I rely on the internet for a9 prices in 2017-19).

Long story short: Leicas depreciate, but not as much as many other brands.

[Jeff S]

26 minutes ago, trickness said:

”Dealer support” for anything Leica that breaks begins and ends with them giving you contact info for Leica NJ, who will then send your camera off to Wetzlar. I don’t see a value add there and I speak from personal experience 

You’re using the wrong dealers.  

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Luke_Miller]

54 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

You’re using the wrong dealers.  

Jeff

+1