Only Internal Memory & USB Battery Charging

[LikameLeica]

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I have recently decided to only use internal memory and only charge the camera battery using the USB connector.  I am doing this for a couple reasons.

1.  Many issues that seem to be SD card related (camera freezing, random over exposure), so using internal memory negates issues with SD card until firmware is fixed.

2. Reduced wear and tear on the camera by not ejecting battery every time I want to remove SD card to upload picture and/or charge the battery.  Using this approach I will seldom remove the battery from the camera.

Can anyone provide me with their thoughts on any negatives on this approach, besides the obvious reason that you should be able to not have to take these 2 precautions on a $9K+ camera.

Thoughts?

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[ianforber]

I had never thought of the wear and tear of removing the battery (or SD card) as an issue worth considering. Do you think the potential stress on the USB port is less risky? I confess I would worry more about that than removing a battery but that’s just me. Personally, having had no freezes, I see no need to take precautions with my camera (I recognise that others have very different experience though). The discussions here often mention SD cards as a possible cause of freezing but I haven’t read any definitive evidence to that effect, indeed I seem to recall reading that someone had issues even when using the internal memory. 
 

 

[LBJ2]

58 minutes ago, LikameLeica said:

I have recently decided to only use internal memory and only charge the camera battery using the USB connector.  I am doing this for a couple reasons.

1.  Many issues that seem to be SD card related (camera freezing, random over exposure), so using internal memory negates issues with SD card until firmware is fixed.

2. Reduced wear and tear on the camera by not ejecting battery every time I want to remove SD card to upload picture and/or charge the battery.  Using this approach I will seldom remove the battery from the camera.

Can anyone provide me with their thoughts on any negatives on this approach, besides the obvious reason that you should be able to not have to take these 2 precautions on a $9K+ camera.

Thoughts?

Nothing wrong with your approach, technically or mechanically. I use the same approach on certain travel scenarios, but not on a regular day to day basis. I very much appreciate that Leica designed such features we can choose to use or not based upon needs/wants, something no other Leica M currently offers. 

Personally, I would not worry about wear and tear on the M11 as it is designed to support both SD cards and the physical battery actions too. 

Did you, or do you have repeated SD card problem, camera freezing or just read about it ?

FWIW, I do not have the freeze or the SD card issues some write about in this forum often and repeatedly. I happen to use the very same SD cards so often pointed out as problematic on this forum. Not that I don't believe some are experiencing issues with their camera and/or SD cards as there are many variables, but I think repeated comments and too many threads on the same tend to magnify a problem some experience, out of proportion--but we will never know since most NOT experiencing these problems don't post anyway 😉. AKA people with problems tend to post their problems or their opinions of said problem on forums. Nothing wrong with this approach as many are looking for assistance or confirmation. 

For me your listed approach is much more about convenience rather than saving wear and tear. However if some find that approach improves their overall workflow and/or provides confidence for trouble free operations, why not it is an in-spec feature there to be used or not.

*USBC if used with the right cables and devices seems to be very common these days even among most camera manufacturers. Finding the right USBC charging capable USBC cable can be a PITA as cable standards can be confusing and not always consistent, but if you find the one that works..then it works--simple as that. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by LBJ2

[LBJ2]

I would like to add a caveat to in- camera USBC battery charging ...all the time. Something to consider:

The Leica battery charger, charges the battery quickly up to 80% then a much slower charge from 80% through to 100%. USBC in-camera battery charging appears to charge the battery at same rate up to 100%. For this reason if one is charging the battery in-camera all of the time, maybe consider USBC in-camera battery charging up to about 80% only. I don't know either way, but to me the separate Leica charger behavior might be worth considering on a long term basis if concerned about maximizing battery life. 

Also, Leica battery recommendations, as can be read in the very tiny, small print on the included brochure recommends performing a battery charging approach for maximum battery life: Something along the lines of:

1. Brand new batteries should be depleted to 0% in camera and then charged 100% for the first few uses 

2. This process should be carried out again about every 25 times the battery is used

The above two points, IMO might require the occasional use of the battery charger to top things off from 80-100%. 

[Cliff S]

How do you transfer the images in the internal SD directly to your computer? The drive doesn’t show on the computer

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

The Leica battery charger, charges the battery quickly up to 80% then a much slower charge from 80% through to 100%. USBC in-camera battery charging appears to charge the battery at same rate up to 100%

That is incorrect. Both external and internal charging slow down toward the end (see also RedDotForum report). The difference is that external charging takes longer, probably slowing down earlier.
I measured in-camera charging. For the first 90 minutes, the battery charges at 8.6W to 80%. After 90 minutes, the charging slows. At 120 minutes, the battery reached 95% while being charged with 3.4W.

[SrMi]

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25 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Brand new batteries should be depleted to 0% in camera and then charged 100% for the first few uses 

Lithium batteries should not be depleted to 0%. Not letting it die completely will extend the battery lifespan. More details here. 

Frankly, I only bothered with the discharging rules with RC electric car racing, where I needed to eke the last bit out of the battery. For cameras, it does not matter if my battery lasts 5% (my guesstimate) less.

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, Cliff S said:

How do you transfer the images in the internal SD directly to your computer? The drive doesn’t show on the computer

I assume you have a Mac. Use Android Transfer to see the content of the SD card or internal memory. Also, some post processors (LrC) can import without mounting the SD card.
Unfortunately, M11 does not have USB's mass storage mode.

[LBJ2]

40 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

Lithium batteries should not be depleted to 0%. Not letting it die completely will extend the battery lifespan. More details here. 

Frankly, I only bothered with the discharging rules with RC electric car racing, where I needed to eke the last bit out of the battery. For cameras, it does not matter if my battery lasts 5% (my guesstimate) less.

 

47 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is incorrect. Both external and internal charging slow down toward the end (see also RedDotForum report). The difference is that external charging takes longer, probably slowing down earlier.
I measured in-camera charging. For the first 90 minutes, the battery charges at 8.6W to 80%. After 90 minutes, the charging slows. At 120 minutes, the battery reached 95% while being charged with 3.4W.

I knew you in particular would be policing my comment 😉What took you so long! I write in jest. 

Please read the Leica Lithium-Ion battery brochure, that's where I found this quote under English section notes 5th bullet down: 

"A new battery only reaches its full capacity after it has been fully charged and discharged two or three times by using the camera. This discharge procedure should be repeated roughly every every 25 cycles" 

Whether this matters to you, me or anyone else is another thing and why I wrote maybe "consider" the above. 

Regarding what David said in the video you posted, He seems to agree with what I posted as far as in-camera battery charging vs the Leica charger. Listen at the 1:34:55 mark in the video where he talks about the purpose of "...the last 20% trickle charge in the Leica charger in order to maintain battery longevity. That is a thing and well known...if you charge too fast too many times you can actually wreck your battery life..." 

But again. As I wrote just a consideration that some may find helpful or not--many will not care either way convenience trumps maximum battery life "potential" I am not sure your use of the word describing my comment as "incorrect" is actually correct BTW. But no worries. Pls carry on. 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by LBJ2

[jakontil]

38 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I assume you have a Mac. Use Android Transfer to see the content of the SD card or internal memory. Also, some post processors (LrC) can import without mounting the SD card.
Unfortunately, M11 does not have USB's mass storage mode.

LR and Photos in mac or maybe capture one too? do we have to set the setting to PTP in camera body? or MFI could do too? i know mine set to PTP 

[jakontil]

3 hours ago, LikameLeica said:

I have recently decided to only use internal memory and only charge the camera battery using the USB connector.  I am doing this for a couple reasons.

1.  Many issues that seem to be SD card related (camera freezing, random over exposure), so using internal memory negates issues with SD card until firmware is fixed.

2. Reduced wear and tear on the camera by not ejecting battery every time I want to remove SD card to upload picture and/or charge the battery.  Using this approach I will seldom remove the battery from the camera.

Can anyone provide me with their thoughts on any negatives on this approach, besides the obvious reason that you should be able to not have to take these 2 precautions on a $9K+ camera.

Thoughts?

you are being too cautious, one of another it's a good thing... however, dont put too much pressure on your mind, the camera is designed to last the way it is used in a proper way

1. if it has issues, even the internal memory would effect it, random over exposure seems a thing of the past, the only thing can replicate if you notice, burst mode and slow sd card write, the over exposure issues mostly fixed in early firmwares

2. the spring loaded battery need to be ejected to release tension too so by keeping it pressed, neither a good idea logically but here we're really diving into something too specific 

i mainly use the usb c charging solely because for convenience at the moment, i used to have spare battery, and when i had that, i used the external charger between use

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, jakontil said:

LR and Photos in mac or maybe capture one too? do we have to set the setting to PTP in camera body? or MFI could do too? i know mine set to PTP 

Use PTP for connecting to computer. I have not tried it with C1.

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

I knew you in particular would be policing my comment 😉What took you so long! I write in jest. 

Yeah, it bothers me when I see alternate facts spreading, as they easily overwhelm actual facts. But this also allows me to be corrected when I am wrong and thus learn something new.

 

36 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Please read the Leica Lithium-Ion battery brochure, that's where I found this quote under English section notes 5th bullet down: 

"A new battery only reaches its full capacity after it has been fully charged and discharged two or three times by using the camera. This discharge procedure should be repeated roughly every every 25 cycles" 

Whether this matters to you, me or anyone else is another thing and why I wrote maybe "consider" the above.

Yes, every manufacturer has something similar in their manual. I have never done it and have never had issues with my batteries. However, it is prudent to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
However, I would not discharge to 0% as you recommended. I did it once to measure the in-camera charging behavior, but I will not do it again. On the other hand, it is possible that the camera or battery has a safety which prevent it from being discharged to 0%.

44 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Regarding what David said in the video you posted, He seems to agree with what I posted as far as in-camera battery charging vs the Leica charger. Listen at the 1:34:55 mark in the video where he talks about the purpose of "...the last 20% trickle charge in the Leica charger in order to maintain battery longevity. That is a thing and well known...if you charge too fast too many times you can actually wreck your battery life..." 

David disagrees with your statement that the in-camera charging runs "at same rate up to 100%" (RedDotForum, in-camera charging: 80% in 1h 25min, 100% in 1h 55min). My measurements also disagree with you. David said that charging takes longer with the external charger, which may be gentler on the battery than the in-camera charging.

[charlesphoto99]

I personally would rather not have my camera plugged into anything other than a flash with a cable, because I know I’d race to grab the camera and pull my very expensive laptop to the ground. Or trip on the cable and dump the camera. YMMV. 

[elmars]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

I assume you have a Mac. Use Android Transfer to see the content of the SD card or internal memory. Also, some post processors (LrC) can import without mounting the SD card.
Unfortunately, M11 does not have USB's mass storage mode.

Can You see the previews in LrC? I cannot. 

[ELAN]

57 minutes ago, elmars said:

Can You see the previews in LrC? I cannot. 

Neither can I. 

As for battery charging, I prefer not to charge in camera and use the external charger when possible.  And when I charge my spare battery that will sit unused for a couple weeks I only charge it to 80% or 90% as it’s healthier for a battery that sits unused. Before using the battery I may charge it 100% if I think I might need it. Never ran out of battery on my M11 and never carried the spare with me.  Not the case with my M10. 

[LikameLeica]

12 hours ago, jqian6 said:

Don't know what to say, but doesn't look like you enjoy the camera rather you are scared of it.

I understand the mentality, I really do. By spending this much on a camera you keep pacifying it and pleasing it, hope it will live longer than you.

But man, money spent already shouldn't you enjoy it?

I am the opposite. I use heck out of it. At the end of the day it's just stuff, money is gone and it's gone. Don't sweat it anymore.

Poor assumption that I don't use and enjoy my camera equipment.  I absolutely enjoy and use my cameras extensively.  That being said I do take care of the things that I purchase, whether a car or a piece of electronic equipment.  http://www.blamethecamera.com for evidence of my extensive use :>)

To clarify a bit more, I have had some bad luck (or experience) with both my Leica Q and Leica SL2-S both having memory card slot issues.  The Leica Q SD Card spring action completely stopped working and on my Leica SL2-S the door for the SD cards had a very small spring come out and the door became very loose.  I have lived with the Leica Q issue, but the SL2-S had to be sent in for repair which took almost 3 months.  So....as much as I love Leica, I have had some unfortunate experience with poor quality issues.

I do not find my current use case as inconvenient, but was just trying to gauge whether there was any known issues with my approach.  

I have actually tweaked my approach slightly over the last couple days, which I think is providing a great overall working solution.  I have inserted the SD card back into camera and set the storage management to "IN = SD".  This stores the pictures primarily on internal memory and a back-up on SD card and provides me a back-up all the time of the pictures I take while traveling or out for the day.

[LikameLeica]

21 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

 

Did you, or do you have repeated SD card problem, camera freezing or just read about it ?

 

Since owning the M11 I have had many occasions where the camera just randomly freezes.  Turning power off or sometimes having to eject battery.  I have not had it lock up since using this approach, but not sure I have used it enough to say that this has solved the issue.  The only reason I connect it to SD card is because of other comments in Forum and also when visiting Leica store they indicated that it may be my SD card.

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[Rungroj Suppagarn]

I also have a problem with powerbank or another m11 battery becase the price of Anker 19000 MaH in my country almost the same as m11 battery .

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, elmars said:

Can You see the previews in LrC? I cannot. 

No, I cannot.