Elmar 35mm & 50mm f3.5: An appreciation thread

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35 minutes ago, lct said:

Better choose a late version like this coated copy from 1948. Its IQ is more contrasty than early versions though.

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That looks prestine.

[lct]

24 minutes ago, mcpallesen said:

That looks prestine.

Got it from a collector with mint silver and black hoods but i miss this one .

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Edited February 15, 2023 by lct

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30 minutes ago, lct said:

Got it from a collector with mint silver and black hoods but i miss this one .

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Would love to make a find like that 😊

[shirubadanieru]

6 hours ago, mcpallesen said:

Now I need to find one of the 3.5/35 Elmar lenses. They look great also. 👌🏻 Are they possibe to find without haze or other issues?

Absolutely! a few cleaning marks is no problem, but I'd try to avoid haze etc. tamarkin has one in good shape.

[Andy_Shields]

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35/3.5 Elmar on an M-A

[Andy_Shields]

35/3.5 Elmar on an M-A

 

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[Jul]

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Unnumbered 50mm nickel Elmar, M9 
I raised the camera too late (model's mouth is already closing), a split
second sooner these people on my side just shot 2023 most beautiful wide
open mouth close-up…
In the hurry I pressed the shutter before fully stopping my rotation,
slight blur is mine. I found them very cute, they are probably in love
or very good friends.
This was a few minutes after an inexistent sunset (light grey sky
all-over), light is still stronger from where the sun was supposed to be
seen setting.

 

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[ocean2059]

Elmar 3.5cm f/3.5 (1948 coated) with M10R

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[ocean2059]

Elmar 3.5cm f/3.5 (1948 coated) with M10R

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[ocean2059]

Elmar 3.5cm f/3.5 (1948 coated) with M10R

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[Ecar]

M10P ASC + 1948 Elmar 35/3.5

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[shirubadanieru]

Just came back from the ‘Old Lens 50mm f3.5’ book launch. 

The older speaker is the writer (both website and books). Also bought the book so will share here some insights in the coming weeks.

Pics taken with M10M & Elmar 50mm nickel early type f3.6 (1926ish)

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Edited February 19, 2023 by shirubadanieru

[yossi]

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M6/RS Elmar 5cm.  Expired ARISTA Premium 400 in HC-110.

[ocean2059]

Elmar 3.5cm f3.5 with M10R

 

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[shirubadanieru]

A few excerpts from the book in reference to the 'Old type' Elmar as there is no book until now that has made an attempt to identify and explain it. Hope this is useful. This is my best attempt at a translation from Japanese, so some things may sound weird. 

❶ Old-type Elmar 50mm & GOERZ glass
This lens is the so-called "Old type Elmar". I am not certain who started this expression and when, but it is a bit vague. Perhaps a little confusion could have been avoided if it had been called "Goertz Elmar. The old Elmar was a German Goertz-Elmar.

It may be a matter of common knowledge to true Leica fans that it is a lens made of Goertz glass, but given the vagueness of the description thus far, it is no wonder that it is accompanied by confusion with other versions, such as the short Elmar and nickel Elmar.

Görtz is not a very familiar lens manufacturer in Japan today, since it disappeared in Europe in 1926 due to a merger, but it is no exaggeration to say that its glass manufacturing technology was no less than that of Zeiss (SCHOTT). Zeiss was founded in 1846, but it was not until around 1880 that glass engineer Otto Schott joined the company, and industrial glass production probably began in the mid-1980s. Görtz, on the other hand, got off to a late start in 1888, but began glass production the following year in 1889. How did they get started so quickly? Carl Paul Gorz (1854-1923), the company's founder, had previously trained at Emile Busch, which was founded in the late 1700s and famous for its "Nicolas Perspeyde lenses. And Goertz was not to be outdone in technical ability. 

In 1900, Goertz produced the "Hypergon", an ultra-wide-angle lens for large-format cameras, which is said to be impossible to manufacture the same one even today. This jewel-like lens made of only two pieces of ultra-thin glass was the product of Goerz's outstanding design know-how and manufacturing technology at the time.

❷ Let us briefly summarize the transition regarding Elmar's design and glass.
- At the end of the 1910s, Max Berek returned from service in World War I and was instructed to design a special lens for Barnack cameras.
- In 1920, he designed a triplet lens with 4 elements in 3 groups and a rear group. Patent (DE343080) Obtained (similar to Tessar lens with front aperture).
- 1923 marks the development of the Leitz Anastigmat 50mm lens. 5 elements in 3 groups with 3 elements in the rear group laminated together.
- 1925: Leica A-type lens was introduced. Initially Leitz Anastigmat, soon followed by Ermax. The name was changed to 50mm f/3.5.
- Before this, a new glass with a high refractive index and low dispersion was developed at the Zentringer glass factory in Gurtz AG.
- From the end of 1925 to 1926, Leica-mounted lenses are changed to Elmar lenses with four elements in three groups. New glass from Goertz was used.
- In 1926, Gerz participated in the merger of four companies led by Zeiss. In 1927/28, Goertz glass stops being supplied to manufacturers. From there onwards the glass was supplied by Zeiss SCHOTT. Elmar lenses from that time onward are called "New Elmar" lenses, and the lenses up to that time are called "Old Elmar" lenses.

❸ What's so good about the Old-type Elmar? 
Why do so many people pursue this lens in the used market? There may be a few answers I can think about:

(1) Because they are rare and few in number due to the Goertz glass used.
(2) Because it is nickel and has a short barrel and looks cool.
(3) Because various books and Leica enthusiasts around them say that the "old" Leica is better.
(4) Because they like the lens rendering.

How about you, readers?
In fact, the answer (3) is quite common. When I look around on the Internet, I find several articles that say "I finally got the old Elmar," but I couldn't find any article that clearly explains what is good about the old type Elmar. But that's not the fault of the person writing the online article or anything. "This is made with Goertz glass" and "there are only a few made in the world,", this kind of description is the problem of our Leica connoisseurs' predecessors who have used the same expressions without taking a step forward to find out more. If you are a lens collector, (1) and (2) would also be a good reason.

But what is so good about Goertz glass? 
Actually the characteristics of the old Elmar made with Goertz glass and the new Elmar made with SCHOTT glass are very different. When comparing the lenses side by side, the upper row shows lenses from No. 0 to No. 3, which are assumed to be the old Elmar numbers written at the bottom of the infinity lock, and the lower row from No. 4 to No. 6 are the new Elmar (nickel), and the rightmost is red dial Elmar, which is said to have been radically redesigned. Although the individual images may be too small, it is clear that the old Elmer is superior in depicting the ring zone.

(more coming soon when I'm done translating)

[shirubadanieru]

Part 2:

How to distinguish the Old Elmar from the New? 
I am aware that there are some characteristics of the old Elmar that have been passed down as "how to tell them apart" in some sort of urban legend.
I am aware that there are some characteristics of the old Elmar, so I will list them below.

(1) Nickel
(2) Short Elmar
(3) Knob numbers from 0 to 3 (and potentially an early small batch of 4?)
(4) The fixing ring of the front element is thin and is not screwed on. (hard to judge this though)
(5) The filter screw pitch is fine. (although there are exceptions) 
(6) The curvature of the front element is tight. (hard to see this though)

However, none of them paint the picture fully 100%. In particular, (2), short Elmars include not only old Elmars but also new Elmars, so care should be taken not to equate them. Around 1928, when the glass supply from Goertz stopped, Leica had not yet adopted the interchangeable screw mount system, so the Type A lenses also came with new Elmars. The new Elmar was also included in the conversion by Leitz to a removable screw mount, and not only the old Elmar. The best way to be sure of obtaining an old Elmar is to purchase it from an experienced and reputable dealer. Such dealers have maintenance technicians who have many years of experience and know the "internal construction differences" between the new and old Elmar. 

Number on the back of the focus knob
The number in the focus knob of Elmars has not been clearly explained by Leitz, but it has been used by Leica enthusiasts for many years with convenience and approval. I would like to summarize this information as a memorandum.

Each number has a different lens length, as described below. I found two sources that complement each other:
Nb 0: 50.5mm
Nb 1: 49.6mm
Nb 2: 51.0mm
Nb 3: 48.6mm
Nb 4: 50.7mm
Nb 5: 51.0mm
Nb 6: 51.3mm
Nb 7: 51.6mm
Nb 8: 51.9mm

＊Is there even a knob back number "2" in existence? We have observed hundreds of Elmars so far, but have yet to find one. Several researchers are of the same opinion.
＊The number "8" on the back of the knob has never been seen on nickel Elmar's.
＊It seems there are two variations to the Nb 4 knob, I own two with different measures, showing that there may have been a change in production half way. Did two Nb 4. Elmars exist truly? Or when a Nb 3. got converted into L39, the Nb changed to 4? Or was it a 3rd party repairman who changed the lens? It's impossible to know.
＊Only the knob number "4" has a plate spring like a "stopper" inside the helicoid. It is a mystery why such an elaborate mechanism is found "only in No. 4".

[shirubadanieru]

Part 3

MTF Curves
Considering the age of the lenses tested, all Elmars of any Knob numbers are basically at a high level of measurement values that can be considered very excellent lenses. A detailed comparison of the MIF measurements revealed a significant difference in trend between the old Elmar's numbers 0, 1, and 3, and the new Elmar's numbers 4, 5, and 6.The old Elmar's has much smaller sagittal-meridional deviations. This has a significant impact on the actual image, and is most apparent in the depiction of the ring zone in the point source magnified image. While the old Elmar's depicts even the outlines of the light source lights quite clearly even in the ring zone, the new Elmar's depiction is blurred all over.

This may be somewhat imaginable considering the circumstances of Elmar's formation throughout the years: 
(1) Max Berek had already in 1920 patented the 3-group-4 Elmar type.
(2) However, for some reason, he had no choice but to use the 3-group/5-element anastigmat and Elmax configurations for mass production. The reason could be that the glass available at the time did not provide the required performance. 
(3) In order to compensate for this, the above lens was produced However, it was time-consuming and costly, and the yield rate was probably low.
(4) Less than a year after the Elmax was launched, Goertz completed their new glass. Immediately after this, Leica switched to Elmar with 4 elements in 3 groups. This was how the old Elmar emerged, and it was also the moment when the lens that was patented in 1920 could be made as conceived for the first time.
(5) However, in 1926, Goertz was absorbed by Zeiss Ikon, and the glass supply stopped after less than two years. The new Elmar was supplied by SCHOTT, but its performance was probably not completely the same as that of the Goertz glass. This was how the new Elmar emerged.
(6) The period of the new Elmar was long, lasting about 22 years, but around 1950, a completely redesigned Elmar appeared to coincide with the launch of the Leica WIF. This was the Red Elmar, and we can say that it was Leica's revival of the original idea patented back in 1920 without any restrictions.
 

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Edited February 20, 2023 by shirubadanieru

[labyrinth]

Thank you for information. I just checked mine there is number 7 on the focus knob

[Ecar]

4 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

A few excerpts from the book in reference to the 'Old type' Elmar as there is no book until now that has made an attempt to identify and explain it. Hope this is useful. This is my best attempt at a translation from Japanese, so some things may sound weird. 

❶ Old-type Elmar 50mm & GOERZ glass
This lens is the so-called "Old type Elmar". I am not certain who started this expression and when, but it is a bit vague. Perhaps a little confusion could have been avoided if it had been called "Goertz Elmar. The old Elmar was a German Goertz-Elmar.

It may be a matter of common knowledge to true Leica fans that it is a lens made of Goertz glass, but given the vagueness of the description thus far, it is no wonder that it is accompanied by confusion with other versions, such as the short Elmar and nickel Elmar.

Görtz is not a very familiar lens manufacturer in Japan today, since it disappeared in Europe in 1926 due to a merger, but it is no exaggeration to say that its glass manufacturing technology was no less than that of Zeiss (SCHOTT). Zeiss was founded in 1846, but it was not until around 1880 that glass engineer Otto Schott joined the company, and industrial glass production probably began in the mid-1980s. Görtz, on the other hand, got off to a late start in 1888, but began glass production the following year in 1889. How did they get started so quickly? Carl Paul Gorz (1854-1923), the company's founder, had previously trained at Emile Busch, which was founded in the late 1700s and famous for its "Nicolas Perspeyde lenses. And Goertz was not to be outdone in technical ability. 

In 1900, Goertz produced the "Hypergon", an ultra-wide-angle lens for large-format cameras, which is said to be impossible to manufacture the same one even today. This jewel-like lens made of only two pieces of ultra-thin glass was the product of Goerz's outstanding design know-how and manufacturing technology at the time.

❷ Let us briefly summarize the transition regarding Elmar's design and glass.
- At the end of the 1910s, Max Berek returned from service in World War I and was instructed to design a special lens for Barnack cameras.
- In 1920, he designed a triplet lens with 4 elements in 3 groups and a rear group. Patent (DE343080) Obtained (similar to Tessar lens with front aperture).
- 1923 marks the development of the Leitz Anastigmat 50mm lens. 5 elements in 3 groups with 3 elements in the rear group laminated together.
- 1925: Leica A-type lens was introduced. Initially Leitz Anastigmat, soon followed by Ermax. The name was changed to 50mm f/3.5.
- Before this, a new glass with a high refractive index and low dispersion was developed at the Zentringer glass factory in Gurtz AG.
- From the end of 1925 to 1926, Leica-mounted lenses are changed to Elmar lenses with four elements in three groups. New glass from Goertz was used.
- In 1926, Gerz participated in the merger of four companies led by Zeiss. In 1927/28, Goertz glass stops being supplied to manufacturers. From there onwards the glass was supplied by Zeiss SCHOTT. Elmar lenses from that time onward are called "New Elmar" lenses, and the lenses up to that time are called "Old Elmar" lenses.

❸ What's so good about the Old-type Elmar? 
Why do so many people pursue this lens in the used market? There may be a few answers I can think about:

(1) Because they are rare and few in number due to the Goertz glass used.
(2) Because it is nickel and has a short barrel and looks cool.
(3) Because various books and Leica enthusiasts around them say that the "old" Leica is better.
(4) Because they like the lens rendering.

How about you, readers?
In fact, the answer (3) is quite common. When I look around on the Internet, I find several articles that say "I finally got the old Elmar," but I couldn't find any article that clearly explains what is good about the old type Elmar. But that's not the fault of the person writing the online article or anything. "This is made with Goertz glass" and "there are only a few made in the world,", this kind of description is the problem of our Leica connoisseurs' predecessors who have used the same expressions without taking a step forward to find out more. If you are a lens collector, (1) and (2) would also be a good reason.

But what is so good about Goertz glass? 
Actually the characteristics of the old Elmar made with Goertz glass and the new Elmar made with SCHOTT glass are very different. When comparing the lenses side by side, the upper row shows lenses from No. 0 to No. 3, which are assumed to be the old Elmar numbers written at the bottom of the infinity lock, and the lower row from No. 4 to No. 6 are the new Elmar (nickel), and the rightmost is red dial Elmar, which is said to have been radically redesigned. Although the individual images may be too small, it is clear that the old Elmer is superior in depicting the ring zone.

(more coming soon when I'm done translating)

Very interesting. Many thanks!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[yossi]

I have a nickel Elmar too.  Just checked, mine has no. 1 knob haha. So it is not quite 50mm, Interesting!