About to buy my first M. (M10,M10R or M11)

[RMeier]

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Hello Everyone 

this is my first post here. Let me quickly introduce myself. 
i‘m reto, living in Switzerland and do photography as a hobby for about 6years now. Started with fuji and then switched to sony (a7riii). Love the camera but after 1 year I noticed that i only shoot M mount lenses eith the adapter.. the camera itself produces nice pictures but doesnt make any fun to use (at least for me).

I have a Voigtlander Besa R2M which i love.. but doesnt use that often since film is so expensive..

 

my current gear:

Sony A7rIII 

voigtlander 35mm 1.7 Ultron

Zeiss Sonnar 50mm 1.5

 

My concern now is:

I would love to own a Leica since more than 3 years.. but couldn’t afford any until today. Now I have the wallet to afford my first M.

I mostly photograph during travels (Bikepacking, Backpacking), lifestyle portraits and Landscape (hiking, climbing) and I do love astrophotography (milkyway) 
I dont want to carry more than 2-3 lenses. 21mm for landscape (have to buy a 21 first) 35mm for everday use and 50mm for portrait.

I want to buy my first leica M now. 
what would you go for? 
 

I can get…

M11 used for 7200€

M10R for 5750€

M10 for 4000€

I factor thos things as most important to me:

- battery life (i‘m spoiled with my sony!) i dont want to carry 2-3 spare batteries plus a charger..

- image quality (DR, and iso performance, shutterspeed, since i like to shoot at 1.5f in bright daylight) i dont need 60mp.. would ratter use 38mp or max 40mp on the m10r.

- reliability. The camera will be a tool for me.. i will use it during bikepacking, climbing, etc.

 

 

M11. go all in on the m11 (but i read that there are some issuses with freezing and so on). If i get the m11 i cannot buy another lens for a while.

M10R. I save a few bucks if i get the m10R instead of the M11.. can safe that money for another lens.. but maybe have the feelings I‘m missing out because I dont get the newst camera.

M10. Is by far the cheapest at 4k. I can easily buy a lens and camera at the same time.

 

What would you go for? 
i dont really know in which direction I should go. Is the M11 really that much better or is it just my GAS. Would the M10R be a good compromise?

many thanks for your advice & have a great one!

reto

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by RMeier

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[jaapv]

Any of these cameras are a good choice, depending on your requirements. However, Leicas are,in general, not an optimal choice for astrophotography. I would recommend that you keep a second camera for that purpose. 

[M Street Photographer]

I was faced with the same decision 4 months ago and decided on the M10 R and didn't regret it for a second.
However, I have a second battery to be on the safe side, even though I have hardly used it until now.
The only concerns I have, as in the previous post, is that it would not be the perfect choice for Astro, none of the M cameras.
The M 10 R is ideal for everything else.
Unless you always prefer to buy the latest, then there is no choice.

Maybe this will help you decide:

 

 

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Hallo Reto,

take the M 10-R and you will be happy not only in case of backpacking! Und wenn Du noch spezielle Fragen haben solltest, melde Dich. Ich wohne in Köln.

Dieter

[M11 for me]

What I am concerned I made the step from M10 to M11 and can not comment on the M10 R. Just that much: The step from M10 to M11 I considered to be a very big step in terms of image quality as as well as in terms of functionality. So when comparing these 2 I would not go for M10 if I were you. Then we have left the M10 R or the M11. At the time when the M11 was launched we could read a lot that an upgrade from M10R was not a too big step so that it was less advisable.

My advice to you: Evaluate M11 and M10R. The price difference from M10 to M10R is considerable; of course. But when you want to invest into Leica system you should probably accept that. The price step to M11 is another story. But remember that within a few years when you might like to move to an M12 that difference in price of your used product is probably still here or you can say that there is a small risk to loose it. 

Hiwever enjoy this evaluation process and take your time.

 

[jankap]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

TEST A LEICA M BEFORE YOU BUY! The M is an incredible tool, but it is not for everyone (UX/UI wise). M11 has the most durable battery and USB charging options.

+1.

A rangefinder is a different concept. Why don't you buy (invest 😜 in) a Sony lens?

[M11 for me]

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Is the Bessa not sonething in that direction?? 🤪

[RMeier]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Hans-Dieter Gülicher:

Hallo Reto,

take the M 10-R and you will be happy not only in case of backpacking! Und wenn Du noch spezielle Fragen haben solltest, melde Dich. Ich wohne in Köln.

Dieter

Vielen Dank für deinen Kommentar Dieter. Gerne melde ich mich noch bei dir wegen meinen Fragen zu M10R.
Gruss Reto

[RMeier]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Any of these cameras are a good choice, depending on your requirements. However, Leicas are,in general, not an optimal choice for astrophotography. I would recommend that you keep a second camera for that purpose. 

Thanks!
Than I will continue to use my sony for astro. Thought I could only use the leica for everything. May I know why the leica is not so good for Astro?

Reto

[RMeier]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Al Brown:

TEST A LEICA M BEFORE YOU BUY! The M is an incredible tool, but it is not for everyone (UX/UI wise). M11 has the most durable battery and USB charging options.

I had the Leica M10, and the M10P a few times in my hand.. didnt use it for long but I'm sure I will like it.

The M11 has the USB Charging which i think is a big plus.. but is it worth the extra cash... (?)

[Kiwimac]

An M11 is about 20% more expensive than a new M10-R here in NZ. 
 

You get 20 more MP, a newer sensor, better EVF resolution, better battery, internal memory and USB for the extra money. 
 

You also get a newer, complex device which still appears to be prone to some reliability issues. The M10-R probably has less of those. 

[RMeier]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb jankap:

+1.

A rangefinder is a different concept. Why don't you buy (invest 😜 in) a Sony lens?

I know  The Voigtländer Bessa is also e Rangefinder and I love using it. I do have plenty of sony lenses.. 21mm,35mm, 50mm, 65mm 70-200mm which I use for astro, portrait, sport, macro and so on.. But I dont like the size of some lenses and i would love to have a simpler system. (I will keep the sony for macro, sports, ...)

 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, RMeier said:

Thanks!
Than I will continue to use my sony for astro. Thought I could only use the leica for everything. May I know why the leica is not so good for Astro?

Reto

On the M10 (I’m not sure about the M 11, you’d have to research it ) one cannot turn off LENR reducing the ability to do long exposure.

In general, there is a difference between rangefinder photography and mirrorless/SLR photography, although the auxiliary stick-on on EVF has made the M more universal. But you are not buying an M  camera to turn it into a run-of-the-mill EVF one. You are shelling out a not inconsiderable amount of money for the rangefinder experience. That means being more involved in you subject 

Using an EVF is looking at the image you are taking, using a rangefinder/optical viewfinder is looking at the real scene you are involved in and snipping a moment out of it. 

USB charging can be convenient but is overrated. You cannot use the camera whilst it is stuck on your desk; pop a new battery and you are ready to go. I see it more as a backup for a forgotten charger. 

[RMeier]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Kiwimac:

An M11 is about 20% more expensive than a new M10-R here in NZ. 
 

You get 20 more MP, a newer sensor, better EVF resolution, better battery, internal memory and USB for the extra money. 
 

You also get a newer, complex device which still appears to be prone to some reliability issues. The M10-R probably has less of those. 

Thats the struggle I have now... I think I remove the M10 from the list.. 
Showdown between M11 and M10R. 
I do like the better battery and USB of the M11. Acctualy I do like the added features the M11 has. But is it worth the higher price..
Its a tough decision. The problem is: I will buy used and not new. Sometimes a good offer pops up (like right now) and I don`t have months or even weeks to think about it.

 

[Kiwimac]

1 minute ago, RMeier said:

Thats the struggle I have now... I think I remove the M10 from the list.. 
Showdown between M11 and M10R. 
I do like the better battery and USB of the M11. Acctualy I do like the added features the M11 has. But is it worth the higher price..
Its a tough decision. The problem is: I will buy used and not new. Sometimes a good offer pops up (like right now) and I don`t have months or even weeks to think about it.

 

Ah, well that is not a problem I am likely to have in New Zealand. I have yet to see a secondhand M11 for sale - from a dealer anyway.

If you're buying secondhand, I would go with the M10R unless the M11 warranty is transferable to you. I would not want an M11 without decent warranty just now.

[RMeier]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Kiwimac:

Ah, well that is not a problem I am likely to have in New Zealand. I have yet to see a secondhand M11 for sale - from a dealer anyway.

If you're buying secondhand, I would go with the M10R unless the M11 warranty is transferable to you. I would not want an M11 without decent warranty just now.

The M11 which is up for sale was bought in France and imported to Switzerland. According to the seller, if there is an issue, it can be taken to any Leica store, even in Switzerland, to redeem the camera for the warranty. 

[jaapv]

Don’t worry about upgrades etc. Yes, the evolution of various upgrades is clear , but ask yourself what improvement will result in the photographs it produces?  For instance megapixels : how often do you crop strongly enough to use a high number?  You'll be hard pressed to see a difference between a normal-sized print from a 10 MP camera and a 60 MP one, certainly nothing that would impact the content in most cases. Let alone from 24 to 60. Many of us are still taking more than excellent images and enjoying the newest lenses (far more important than the box, that) with an M 9. Leica M is for the long run, not for the upgrade treadmill. 

[jaapv]

31 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

Ah, well that is not a problem I am likely to have in New Zealand. I have yet to see a secondhand M11 for sale - from a dealer anyway.

If you're buying secondhand, I would go with the M10R unless the M11 warranty is transferable to you. I would not want an M11 without decent warranty just now.

Leica factory guarantee is ALWAYS transferable. In Europe any guarantee is by law.

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Hallo,

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[LeicaR10]

RMeier,  First, welcome to the forum.  As you can see there are a good number of well meaning and experienced Leica photographers in the forum.  Second, I understand your angst with selecting a M camera that meets your wants/needs.  There are many fans of the new M11 just as there are fans for the M10-R.  Based on my experience with both cameras, I would advise going with the M10-R. It is very reliable, excellent color and does nearly everything you wish and perhaps more.  Personally, I had the M11 and went back to the M10-R.  No regrets and get most excellent results.  If you try the M10-R and want to evolve to a M11, I would suggest you wait for the M11-P due out in about 6-8 months. It might have some improvements with it as well.  Hope this helps. Happy New Year!  r/ Mark

[RMeier]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Don’t worry about upgrades etc. Yes, the evolution of various upgrades is clear , but ask yourself what improvement will result in the photographs it produces?  For instance megapixels : how often do you crop strongly enough to use a high number?  You'll be hard pressed to see a difference between a normal-sized print from a 10 MP camera and a 60 MP one, certainly nothing that would impact the content in most cases. Many of us are still taking more than excellent images and enjoying the newest lenses (far more important than the box, that) with an M 9. Leica M is for the long run, not for the upgrade treadmill. 

Many thanks for your post. This really helped me a lot to clear my mind.

I do think I`ll get the M10R for now and enjoy what I have with this camera  & safe the money for a future lens or another upgrade.

And maybe when the an M11P comes out.. I can decided wether I do "need" the upgrade path with more MP, Battery, and so on or not.. 

 

I will keep you postet about my journey Thanks guys you helped me a lot!

Have a great day!

Reto