M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Which bug are you referring to? Can you take an example?

I thought it was you saying there was a freezing problem related to lens detection and that turning lens detection off was a recommended solution.

[lucerne]

1 hour ago, jqian6 said:

Can you quantify “lot”? In relative sense like percentage or absolute figure like how many exactly being returned out of how many being sold?

 

No. Of course we cannot,   That isnt possible.  We dont have access to numbers of international sales or returns.  

This debate has become lengthy, irritating and full of speculation.

Lets stop now.  

 

[lucerne]

Ask yourself...  what are you achieving?     

learning nothing because no conclusion is in sight.

the problem is for Leica to solve, but it does seem that only a couple of you are perpetuating the debate.

Maybe there isn't a problem after all!

i belong to this community as well, and the continuing debate is pointless.  Notice how regular contributors have kept away.  

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I thought it was you saying there was a freezing problem related to lens detection and that turning lens detection off was a recommended solution.

I was reacting to a post stating that "lens detection is never really off" by suggesting that lens detection can stay off at will when uncoded lenses are mounted but my M11 works perfectly with both coded and uncoded lenses so i cannot figure out what bug it could suffer from actually.

[Qlan]

30 minutes ago, lct said:

I was reacting to a post stating that "lens detection is never really off" by suggesting that lens detection can stay off at will when uncoded lenses are mounted

If after all this, and all the explanation from different people, you still don't understand that lens detection is never off (remember: I'm not talking about what you are seeing in the menu, but what really happens), then maybe you shouldn't contribute when there is a technical discussion about this subject.

[lct]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

If after all this, and all the explanation from different people, you still don't understand that lens detection is never off (remember: I'm not talking about what you are seeing in the menu, but what really happens), then maybe you shouldn't contribute when there is a technical discussion about this subject.

I am not good at theories sorry. As far as coded and uncoded lenses are concerned, my M11 works as intended so i don't see what theoretical or hypothetical bug it could suffer from actually. YMMV.

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

I was reacting to a post stating that "lens detection is never really off" by suggesting that lens detection can stay off at will when uncoded lenses are mounted but my M11 works perfectly with both coded and uncoded lenses so i cannot figure out what bug it could suffer from actually.

You are completely right. This is not a bug but a design choice, which one can agree or disagree with. A bug is unintentional behaviour. In this case the posters who wish for a different choice are rather vocal. 

[Qlan]

38 minutes ago, lct said:

I am not good at theories sorry. As far as coded and uncoded lenses are concerned, my M11 works as intended so i don't see what theoretical or hypothetical bug it could suffer from actually. YMMV.

It's not a theory, it's logical reasoning. Multiple people explained to you why the behavior of the M11 (and what is documented in the manual) IMPLIES that the lens deduction module is never off, but if you still can't understand, then yes, you shouldn't take part in this specific technical discussion. I'm not saying the current behavior is a bug, I'm saying there might be a bug in the lens detection module software and that's what I wrote to Leica, but you always come back and suggest to turn it off, but since we proved it cannot be turned off, then your suggestion is useless.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Qlan

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I was reacting to a post stating that "lens detection is never really off" by suggesting that lens detection can stay off at will when uncoded lenses are mounted but my M11 works perfectly with both coded and uncoded lenses so i cannot figure out what bug it could suffer from actually.

No, I know what you were reacting to, I mean back in the thread. I thought you were suggesting that lens detection was causing issues and should be left off. Maybe that was someone else.

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You are completely right. This is not a bug but a design choice, which one can agree or disagree with. A bug is unintentional behaviour. In this case the posters who wish for a different choice are rather vocal. 

I wasn't referring to how it works as being a bug, I was referring back to somewhere and someone saying lens detection could be causing freezes because it only happens with uncoded lenses. The only point I was making to @lct was that even though lens detection is off, the camera still will attempt to check for 6-bit coded lens. My suggestion was that lens detection [in some capacity] is still active even though off.

[frame-it]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

even though lens detection is off, the camera still will attempt to check for 6-bit coded lens. My suggestion was that lens detection [in some capacity] is still active even though off.

its the same on my SL2s, with the silly-wrong-cutout-ltm-adapter, and lens detect set to OFF, the camera will still go crazy..

so lens detect is NEVER really OFF.

[SJH]

11 hours ago, wellknown said:

Unfortunately I can not quantify it, it was him using this term and telling me a certain number of cameras (10+)were returned. Given that only a few of customers affected by freezes are going the way of returning the camera - my guess is that quite a lot of M11 owners are affected in total. Sad to say, but It's a mess in my opinion. 

I don't know where you're located but I have a very good relationship with 3 of the biggest dealers in Europe and also the Leica people, they're quite open with me but I'm not saying your post is wrong but none of them would recognise your comment here. They do feel a few people have had some freezes and that, like any high end products, the occasional return for a malfunction but 1.6 fixed most of this and the next version should again reduce any issues further.

From a professional perspective as a Tech CEO, can I suggest to the admins that perhaps a far better way to assist the small minority that are experiencing issues and Leica (my M11 is fine so far) is that rather than, in the nicest way, we continue with ramblings ranging from multiple posts about one camera freezing a few times to another that was bricked, we create a template to essentially log any issues M11 users have.

In this way we can assist Leica's software engineers in a constructive manner. Equally if an M11 user experiences a freeze or multiple freezes etc then they log it the once, have a comments section in the template for anything they wish to add and then leave it unless they then get something different occurring. 

I suspect it's more to do with software/firmware than the actual M11 hardware and is a result of individual use cases/settings etc. It looks like Leica's engineers are narrowing this down with each release and 1.6 went a long way. Unfortunately the internet has a habit of 'warping' perceptions in forums now, for example another new poster has popped up on the DPReview Leica forum using very similar language to here until they were removed a number of times already!!

[elmars]

I see it similarly: there is a problem (probably even two), but the excitement is bigger than the problem. Which is not to minimize the problem. A camera should freeze as little as possible. I just think that this occurs in a smaller number than you have the impression here.

However, Leica could know how the Internet works and respond publicly to this discussion, which has gained a lot of momentum in recent weeks. A few words would suffice: We're working on it. So we are left with speculation.

Edited February 3, 2023 by elmars

[SJH]

2 hours ago, SJH said:

I don't know where you're located but I have a very good relationship with 3 of the biggest dealers in Europe and also the Leica people, they're quite open with me but I'm not saying your post is wrong but none of them would recognise your comment here. They do feel a few people have had some freezes and that, like any high end products, the occasional return for a malfunction but 1.6 fixed most of this and the next version should again reduce any issues further.

From a professional perspective as a Tech CEO, can I suggest to the admins that perhaps a far better way to assist the small minority that are experiencing issues and Leica (my M11 is fine so far) is that rather than, in the nicest way, we continue with ramblings ranging from multiple posts about one camera freezing a few times to another that was bricked, we create a template to essentially log any issues M11 users have.

In this way we can assist Leica's software engineers in a constructive manner. Equally if an M11 user experiences a freeze or multiple freezes etc then they log it the once, have a comments section in the template for anything they wish to add and then leave it unless they then get something different occurring. 

I suspect it's more to do with software/firmware than the actual M11 hardware and is a result of individual use cases/settings etc. It looks like Leica's engineers are narrowing this down with each release and 1.6 went a long way. Unfortunately the internet has a habit of 'warping' perceptions in forums now, for example another new poster has popped up on the DPReview Leica forum using very similar language to here until they were removed a number of times already!!

Just to add to the above and Elmer's comment (which I agree with), I think then Leica can respond because there is a more factual way of reporting bugs etc. I have found this forum full of talented photographers offering great advice. However, I think the challenge of the internet now is that it appears to me that there has been a deliberate attempt to cloud the M11's launch with high degree of malevolence, off the back of a small number of very genuine issues.    

In turn those making multiple posts about the same freezes in their camera are equally stoking the fire and the danger is that Leica will suffer as a result. Already you can see comments like "I'm looking to buy the M11 but see there are a lot of problems' etc. Now equally of course Leica needs to be held to account as well which I fully support.

This forum (& its genuine members) has been simply the best that I've had the privilege to be part of, I think we can all perhaps now do our bit to reach another level to both assist Leica and hold them to account, in a professional and well meaning way. They have already publicly acknowledged that there are some freezing issues but I think the language indicates that this is actually a tiny minority of camera's sold and this makes it, funny enough in my world, harder to finally eradicate without structured feedback. 'My camera has frozen 3 times in the last 5 months' whilst well meaning and heartfelt, doesn't actually really help that much  

Equally for all the lawyers in here consumer protection in both the US and Europe is now so sophisticated that of course if Leica really was 'hiding the truth' as commented or 'it's a mess and loads of cameras are being returned' etc etc then that could be the downfall of Leica. Given the reaction so far I doubt that's the case as they're smart people and wouldn't want to put the business in that position.

[lct]

39 minutes ago, elmars said:

However, Leica could know how the Internet works and respond publicly to this discussion, which has gained a lot of momentum in recent weeks. A few words would suffice: We're working on it. So we are left with speculation.

Leica would recognize a general problem like the M8's IR sensitivity in this way. We are far from that here. Leica can recognize individual problems as they have done already. They wrote "our developers are working on fixing the issue via a firmware update", so let's wait for that update to come if we are interested. Users suffering from freezes or other issues are not obliged to wait though obviously. Requesting a refund or replacement is the way to go for them IMHO, especially if they have little time to do so in their legislation. YMMV.

[elmars]

I think Leica should communicate publicly not only in cases of disasters like the M8 or the M9, but also in cases like these. In my opinion, Leica's behavior is old school. Adobe does it better. There are bug lists. Everyone knows about it, rumors are avoided. The way things are going here, it is damaging for Leica, although the problem is objectively annoying, but no doubts about the camera as a whole are justified. As I wrote earlier: The return rate for the M11 is very low.

[lct]

5 minutes ago, elmars said:

I think Leica should communicate publicly not only in cases of disasters like the M8 or the M9, but also in cases like these. In my opinion, Leica's behavior is old school. Adobe does it better. There are bug lists. Everyone knows about it, rumors are avoided. The way things are going here, it is damaging for Leica, although the problem is objectively annoying, but no doubts about the camera as a whole are justified. As I wrote earlier: The return rate for the M11 is very low.

Not sure what Leica lawyers would say of that. I would not hold my breath but i am retired now so i will watch with interest how my German colleagues will manage the situation.

[MyLeicaWorld]

A new bug, the camera is on; not freezing but when pressing the shutter it won’t take photos..once restarting it becomes normal.. anyone had this experience before?

First I thought the electronic shutter is working because there is no shutter sound.. but then I realised the shutter option is in mechanical only mode.

[Qlan]

46 minutes ago, MyLeicaWorld said:

A new bug, the camera is on; not freezing but when pressing the shutter it won’t take photos..once restarting it becomes normal.. anyone had this experience before?

First I thought the electronic shutter is working because there is no shutter sound.. but then I realised the shutter option is in mechanical only mode.

1. Are the frame lines illuminated in the viewfinder?

2. Is the shutter speed shown in the viewfinder (if on manual, is the exposure indicator illuminated)?

3. When did the freeze happen (startup, wakeup, after taking a photo, etc)?

[MyLeicaWorld]

1 hour ago, Qlan said:

1. Are the frame lines illuminated in the viewfinder?

2. Is the shutter speed shown in the viewfinder (if on manual, is the exposure indicator illuminated)?

3. When did the freeze happen (startup, wakeup, after taking a photo, etc)?

1- yes the frame lines were illuminated.

2- yes the shutter speed was shown

3- at the subway I was taking a candid photo in Tokyo.. the camera was set to ten minutes power saving. I half pressed the shutter and the camera woke up and took the photo.. after a minute I wanted to take another one but there were no shutter sound and no photo was saved.. I restarted the camera making off and on then everything was ok.. this is not the first time.. it happened three or four times in last 3 months .. 

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[jaapv]

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