M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[MikeMyers]

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6 hours ago, andybarton said:

Yes, software glitches shouldn’t happen, but trying to help fix the problem, rather than just moaning about it, is a much more positive position to take, IMHO.

I was thinking about this some more.  As I understand it, previous models of the Leica M, up to and including the M10-R, do not crash.  So the software code they run on did not cause problems.

If a memory card works fine in the M10 cameras, it should work just as well in the M11.

Since the problem is new, it likely has to do with the new features in the M11 software compared to similar features on previous M cameras.

You guys know far more about this than I do, but if the above assumption is correct, maybe someone with an M11 could turn off as many of the new features as possible. With any luck, the camera might stop crashing, which might narrow the search for things that cause the crash.  

A few questions that might narrow it down -

• Do all the crashes happen when the camera is set for a specific image capture size?  Does it crash at 60, and 36, and 18 megapixels, or is there a selection where the camera never crashes?
• Does the camera ever crash when changing settings, or only when capturing an image?
• If one resets the camera to the default settings, and leaves it the way, does the camera still crash?
• Does the camera crash both while using the viewfinder, and also while using the live screen, or only one of those choices?
• If Bluetooth is turned off, does that stop the crashes?
• Does it crash both with and without the Visoflex?
• Does it still crash when NOT using auto-ISO?
• Could the electronic shutter be "turned off", or is it always active?  
• Does the crashing happen only at certain metering settings?  
• Does the crashing happen regardless of what "mode" it has been set for?  Does it ever happen in (M)anual mode?

I think I read here where the camera might crash completely, and not come back to life even if the battery is removed and replaced.  Is that true?  If so, does connecting the internal charging system via USB bring it back to life, perhaps after a delay?

There are so many new things on this camera/computer that there may well be more than one problem that needs to be dealt with.

 

7 hours ago, andybarton said:

By discussing issues with new models, trying various scenarios to remedy problems ourselves, means that Leica can use the data that we discuss to resolve matters in a more timely way than they could on their own.

Yes, software glitches shouldn’t happen, but trying to help fix the problem, rather than just moaning about it, is a much more positive position to take, IMHO.

 

With enough detail posted here of the camera settings at the time of the crash, that information might narrow down the search of what part of the software needs to be evaluated.

At the same time, it might be useful to know if the software crashes still happen when someone uses the camera "out of the box", without making any changes to any of the settings.  

 

One more thing - 'mathphotographer' posted a video that many people here might not be aware of, when the M11 is "bricked" after updating the firmware.  Maybe this will be useful.  Are all of you doing this after updating?  Fast forward to the very end if you don't want the long story.  I found it interesting to read all the comments below the video.

    youtube.com/watch?v=hYHhA599aWg

 

Feel free to add to the above list.  

 

[fededuran]

Received my M11 last week. Automatically updated the last firmware. Today, during a walk, the camera froze up several times. So it looks like the problem is still there and that's very worrying.

[elmars]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb MikeMyers:

One more thing - 'mathphotographer' posted a video that many people here might not be aware of, when the M11 is "bricked" after updating the firmware.  Maybe this will be useful.  Are all of you doing this after updating?  Fast forward to the very end if you don't want the long story.  I found it interesting to read all the comments below the video.

This is a long time ago. It was 1.2.1.0, now we have 1.6.0.0. Different animals. In the current update process You don‘t have to delete the downloaded firmware from the SD card. 

[Photoworks]

12 hours ago, Eugene Young said:

Don’t you think that is why we paid the higher price than that of other good products?

isn't the price of Leica M11 the same across?  Even if you think to be entitled to white glove service of your support, the reality is not always simple.

I am blessed to be able to have a choice and happy to put up with the Leica M11.

From My side I contributed to solve some issue but getting in touch with Leica and making it possible to get  a more stable camera for all.

 

reposting, testing and finding the issue in code can be challenging , I am no programmer, but judging from a few details the M11 has significant changes in hardware and software so that it is much different from M10 family, and hard to make a dependable product.

Sure I wish it would be different , but I am happy to have this camera for the last year, from my image count it is more used then another M camera in the past.

[Photoworks]

I wish all of you and Leica families a Merry Christmas...

Just days before leaving for the holidays I had a chance to get help from Leica NJ.

I needed M11 calibration, I made an appointment, visit the new offices, a very cool new space with glass window into the service shop. I got a great coffee and a Leica magazine while I was waiting. Great service.

Thank you

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

As I understand it, previous models of the Leica M, up to and including the M10-R, do not crash.  

 

Wrong…similar threads regarding various earlier models.  

Jeff

[lct]

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8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Wrong…similar threads regarding various earlier models.  

Never got any freeze or lockup with my M240 so far. I never used UHS-II cards on it though. 

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Never got any freeze or lockup with my M240 so far. I never used UHS-II cards on it though. 

I’ve also had success with only using UHS-1 cards to date (don’t own M11… but others from M8.2 to M10M and M10R).  But freeze issues have come up with most every M model, as have discussions/speculations  regarding card compatibility.  Groundhog Day.

Jeff

[lct]

16 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I’ve also had success with only using UHS-1 cards to date (don’t own M11… but others from M8.2 to M10M and M10R).  But freeze issues have come up with most every M model, as have discussions/speculations  regarding card compatibility.

My UHS-II card works fine on my Sony and CL bodies so i will try it on my M240 to see if it causes problems there too. 

[Jeff S]

Past discussions/speculations have also involved SD card brand, speed, storage capacity, etc.  Endless combinations, including possible triggering actions. Knock yourself out. I’ll let Leica sort the rest (or not), which is one of many issues that reinforce my aversion to being an early adopter for most any new tech, not just cameras.  Works for me.

Jeff

Edited December 25, 2022 by Jeff S

[MikeMyers]

Is the M11 specifically designed to make use of the higher speeds on a USH-II over an USH-1 ?  Or, is the M11 currently an USH-1 device which also works on UHS-II, but doesn't make use of the higher speed capability?

https://havecamerawilltravel.com/uhs-i-vs-uhs-ii-sd-microsd-cards/

[hmzimelka]

23 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Is the M11 specifically designed to make use of the higher speeds on a USH-II over an USH-1 ?  Or, is the M11 currently an USH-1 device which also works on UHS-II, but doesn't make use of the higher speed capability?

https://havecamerawilltravel.com/uhs-i-vs-uhs-ii-sd-microsd-cards/

I would say it barely qualifies... it can't actually exceed maximum UHS-I speeds, but it can only achieve these with UHS-II cards, with UHS-I cards not far behind. 

These were the results of my last tests.

- Writing speeds to internal memory: About 124.4 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/S 64GB UHS-I card: About 69 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 300 MB/S 128GB UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 2000x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 1667x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to ProGrade 128GB V60 (Gold) UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

[Adam Bonn]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Never got any freeze or lockup with my M240 so far. I never used UHS-II cards on it though. 

me neither... I had the strangest issue ONCE on my (long gone) 240 though

The SS dial and the recorded (and actual) SS became out of sync!

So I would set 1/2000 on the dial and the shot was (and tagged in the exif as) 1/1500, this was true for all shutter speed values.

I did a reset from the menu and it never troubled me again.

My M10 froze needing a battery pull once, but I did something dumb like attach the EVF when the cameras was already on and in LV or something like that.

M10R only had it 6 weeks, so....

The M9 I don't recall any freezes or anything weird in five years and about 50k frames... (ever have the feeling you've just jinxed something?)

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, hmzimelka said:

I would say it barely qualifies... it can't actually exceed maximum UHS-I speeds, but it can only achieve these with UHS-II cards, with UHS-I cards not far behind. 

These were the results of my last tests.

- Writing speeds to internal memory: About 124.4 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/S 64GB UHS-I card: About 69 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 300 MB/S 128GB UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 2000x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 1667x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to ProGrade 128GB V60 (Gold) UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

How did you test it? Did you test the transfer speeds when connected to the computer or did you tests the access speeds in the camera?

[hmzimelka]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

How did you test it? Did you test the transfer speeds when connected to the computer or did you tests the access speeds in the camera?

Camera set to continuous shooting, shot off some 40+ images, all while timing it with a stopwatch until the red write light finished.

Then determined the file sizes of all those images and calculated the total megabytes over the total time to get an average MB/sec rating.

For internal memory I used Android File Transfer to copy off the images off the camera to the computer.

Edited December 25, 2022 by hmzimelka

[ELAN]

4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

As I understand it, previous models of the Leica M, up to and including the M10-R, do not crash. .  

That’s not true. The M240 was notoriously freezing, for many years after its release.  Search the forum and you’ll see how furious people were.  We grudgingly learned to pop out the battery and carry on.  Eventually a late firmware fixed most of the freezing.  The M10 froze too, but less than the M240, and we were already accustomed to pop out the battery and carry on, and Leica fixed it faster than they did the M240.  My M10-P still freezes once in a blue moon. 

My M11 freezes too, but not very often, maybe five times during the past eleven months of dairy use.  Quite an improvement over prior digital Ms, actually. Haven’t had a freeze since firmware 1.6.

If your M11 freezes every day or every week there’s something wrong with it beyond the firmware.

(p.s. all my digital Ms use SanDisk SD cards from B&H.  I always format SD cards in camera after downloading images. Never had an SD card fail. Knock on wood.)

Edited December 25, 2022 by ELAN

[Kiwimac]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I wish all of you and Leica families a Merry Christmas...

Just days before leaving for the holidays I had a chance to get help from Leica NJ.

I needed M11 calibration, I made an appointment, visit the new offices, a very cool new space with glass window into the service shop. I got a great coffee and a Leica magazine while I was waiting. Great service.

Thank you

You’re very lucky. Here in NZ it’s off to Germany and you can have it back in a few months!!

[lct]

1 hour ago, ELAN said:

The M240 was notoriously freezing, for many years after its release.  Search the forum and you’ll see how furious people were.  We grudgingly learned to pop out the battery and carry on.  Eventually a late firmware fixed most of the freezing.

I seem to recall a bug like this when shooting fast sequences but i have never experienced the least freeze with the M240 since i bought the camera in 2013 i must say. FWIW.

[Adam Bonn]

https://leica-camera.com/sites/default/files/pm-53692-Leica M10_FW-Update_1940_EN.pdf
 

Quote

Improvements of SD card compatibility
With the Firmware 1.7.4.0 a larger choice of SD cards is compatible with the Leica M10.
With the last Firmware, certain SD cards were not recognized, or the complete write speed could not be used with the camera.
The Leica M10 supports SDHC/SDXC cards from 1GB up to 512 GB. We recommend to use cards with write speed 80 MB/s or higher in order not to restrict the cameras performance. In single cases it can occur that the speed, stated by the cards manufacturers, differs from the effective read or write speed in the Leica M10.
Use UHS I cards instead of UHS II. The M10 is compatible with UHS II cards, but does not use the full UHS II speed.
Leica performs ongoing compatibility tests of the latest cards available in the market. We ask for your understanding that due to changes in production and software, Leica cannot guarantee a 100% compatibility of the recommended cards.

So for the M10 80mb/s then. (And one assumes also the M10R/M10M)

also note:

Use UHS I cards instead of UHS II.
 

Playing a hunch but maybe the M11 needs a similar FW update to 

With the last Firmware, certain SD cards were not recognized, or the complete write speed could not be used with the camera

They’ll (Leica) get it sorted… they did last time, and the time before, and the time before that..

If (if) you make the case that the M10 was really a hell of a development to the 240 series (same megapixels and sensor supplier #justsaying) then it went 240/262/10/10R and took 8 years. Ergo the 10R is a pretty sorted product but the M11 has reset the clock so to speak. Give it time to mature.

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[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Ergo the 10R is a pretty sorted product but the M11 has reset the clock so to speak. Give it time to mature.

If the sensor has any relevance, then not so much, as it’s unrelated to the M10 sensor, instead based on S3 sensor architecture.

Jeff