M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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18 minutes ago, lct said:

I would think of a user error selecting lens detection auto for an uncoded lens the camera has no way of detecting the ID. In such a case, the status of the lens seems logically "Uncoded" due to the non-application of Leica instructions ("The lens type must be entered manually when using a Leica M lens without 6-bit encoding"). The only Leica fault, if any, is the freeze which should never happen anyway. Now it never happened to me under firmware 1.6.1, so such a "fault" sounds hypothetical for now in this respect.

The minute a manual M lens profile is selected for the first time in the Lens Detection menu, the M11 is forever in Auto mode under Lens Detection. You can manually set it to Off, but if you have an uncoded lens attached, it will not reboot with that Off setting retained, it will instead reboot in Auto, and Auto sets the last selected manual M profile regardless of what uncoded lens is mounted.

Under Lens Detection:

• Auto = forever
• Manual = a subset of Auto which is reactivated upon no 6-bit code being detected
• Off = retains this setting until camera is switched off

Under what circumstances does "Uncoded" ever appear again? 

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[lct]

23 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The minute a manual M lens profile is selected for the first time in the Lens Detection menu, the M11 is forever in Auto mode under Lens Detection. You can manually set it to Off, but if you have an uncoded lens attached, it will not reboot with that Off setting retained, it will instead reboot in Auto, and Auto sets the last selected manual M profile regardless of what uncoded lens is mounted.

Under Lens Detection:

• Auto = forever
• Manual = a subset of Auto which is reactivated upon no 6-bit code being detected
• Off = retains this setting until camera is switched off

Under what circumstances does "Uncoded" ever appear again? 

The Leica instructions are not to set lens detection to "Off" but to enter manually the lens profile of the lens. In such a case the status of the lens is "1.4/35" in my example and there is no problem at all. Next time we mount that very lens or any other uncoded lens, the camera will show "1.4/35" if another lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime. As for "Uncoded", i guess it should show each time we make the same user error when there is no lens profile in memory. 

[hdmesa]

18 minutes ago, lct said:

The Leica instructions are not to set lens detection to "Off" but to enter manually the lens profile of the lens...

What is the purpose of "Off" in the Lens Detection?

 

18 minutes ago, lct said:

...enter manually the lens profile of the lens. In such a case the status of the lens is "1.4/35" in my example and there is no problem at all.

Yes.

 

18 minutes ago, lct said:

...Next time we mount that very lens or any other uncoded lens, the camera will show "1.4/35" if another lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime...

This has nothing to do with freezes and digresses, but IMO this is very poor logic on Leica's part. I don't know how many times I've forgotten to change the profile when changing uncoded lenses, then the baked-in edge color shading correction (if any) is wrongly applied and the EXIF is wrong. The SL2-S firmware logic has this perfectly done when using the M-Adapter-L: any time an M lens change is detected, even with coded lenses, a menu comes up at startup for the user to confirm or change the profile or Lens Detection settings – impossible to ever have the wrong profile selected by accident.

 

18 minutes ago, lct said:

...As for "Uncoded", i guess it should show each time we make the same user error when there is no lens profile in memory. 

Uncoded is not a "user error", it's a Lens Detection status that only shows up with a new camera or one that has been reset. Once the a manual M lens profile is selected for the first time, "Uncoded" will never appear again – instead the last selected M lens profile will be applied (rightly or wrongly depending on which uncoded lens was mounted).

[lct]

6 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

What is the purpose of "Off" in the Lens Detection?

To avoid lens detection auto. If we're not interested in Leica lens profiles, lens detection will be off and will remain so with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime.

[hdmesa]

Just now, lct said:

To avoid lens detection auto. If we're not interested in Leica lens profiles, lens detection will be off and will remain so with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime.

The reason I asked is because it sounded like you were saying with uncoded lenses, Leica says in the manual we cannot use "Off".

Just now, lct said:

...lens detection will be off and will remain so with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime.

Not exactly. With any lens attached, coded or uncoded, if you select "Off", it only remains off until the camera is turned off. The next time you turn the camera back on:

• If an uncoded lens attached, it will be reset to the previously set manual M lens profile
• If a coded lens, the appropriate profile will be applied.

If you want to continue using the uncoded or coded lens with Lens Detection off, you must be vigilant and select "Off" again in the Lens Detection menu each time you turn the camera on.

[lct]

15 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The SL2-S firmware logic has this perfectly done when using the M-Adapter-L

I have no experience with the SLS but the digital CL has a lens profile, so to speak, for "Unknown Lenses".

[hdmesa]

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Just now, lct said:

I have no experience with the SLS but the digital CL has a lens profile, so to speak, for "Unknown Lenses".

SL2-S in the Lens Profiles menu has:

• Auto
• Off
• M-Lenses (manually select a profile)
• Other lens (manually enter the focal length so IBIS can work)

Additionally, if turning on the camera with a 6-bit coded lens attached, it show the name of the lens detected, and the user must select it to be applied (or choose another option).

Off topic, but the M11 (IMO) needs an "Other lens" menu as well. Why? Because if you don't want to use a lens profile with an uncoded lens, the image in the EVF and LCD will not be digitally stabilized. Just like IBIS, the digital stabilization has to know the focal length to provide stabilization of the live view image. This digital stabilization of the preview makes manually focusing when zoomed in much better than previous M cameras.

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

f an uncoded lens attached, it will be reset to the previously set manual M lens profile

Different experience here. In mine, when lens detection is set to off,it will remain so with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime.

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

Different experience here. In mine, when lens detection is set to off,it will remain so with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime.

Sorry, I botched my explanation. Try this:

1. Set an uncoded lens to "Off"
2. Change to a 6-bit coded lens
3. Profile is automatically applied, "Off" is no longer active
4. Change back to an uncoded lens
5. The last manually-selected M lens profile will be applied, "Off" is still no longer active

If you just move from one uncoded lens to another, "Off" will stay off.

At step 3, you would need to turn Lens Detection back to "Off" for it to hold over to step 4.

Edited April 5, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

Just now, hdmesa said:

Sorry, I botched my explanation. Try this:

1. Set an uncoded lens to "Off"
2. Change to a 6-bit coded lens
3. Change back to an uncoded lens
4. The last manually-selected M lens profile will be applied, "Off" is no longer active

Lens detection is not off anymore if we're using a  coded lens. As i suggested above lens detection remains off with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime, in my experience at least.

Edit: time to go to bed here. We will resume this interesting discussion a little later if you don't mind 💤

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Lens detection is not off anymore if we're using a  coded lens. As i suggested above lens detection remains off with uncoded lenses as long as a lens profile is not entered manually in the meantime, in my experience at least.

Edit: time to go to bed here. We will resume this interesting discussion a little later if you don't mind 💤

Agree with what you say here. I was only saying that attaching a coded lens automatically turns detection back on and that is yet another way to lose the "Off" setting if one is not paying attention and checking the quick menu at startup

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

SL2-S... ...if turning on the camera with a 6-bit coded lens attached, it shows the name of the lens detected, and the user must select it to be applied (or choose another option)...

Clarification/correction: The prompt to confirm which M lens is attached only comes up at power-on on the SL2-S when changing lenses from a coded lens to uncoded lens or vice versa. When switching between M lenses of the same type, there is no prompt.

Edited April 5, 2023 by hdmesa

[Qlan]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

...as well as "Uncoded" never being a condition the camera was tested in before release. Should it have been? I don't think so, but I do think Leica should be putting Uncoded in reversed red in the quick menu to show what I think is essentially an error state of the camera and lens detection module. This is also likely why most everyone else besides myself and @Qlan are not having freezes with uncoded lenses at startup – at one point they manually selected an M lens profile for their uncoded lens and never saw "Uncoded" displayed in the quick menu again.

 

I was having plenty of freezes and I was religiously selecting a manual M lens profile every time I changed my uncoded lens to another uncoded lens. That was with firmware 1.6.0. When 1.6.1 was out, I already handcoded my lenses, and I don't remember if I had a lens M profile set for uncoded lenses. So I guess it could happen that the camera wasn't able to detect my poorly painted code, goes to Uncoded mode and freezes because there is no manual M lens profile set.

[hdmesa]

36 minutes ago, Qlan said:

I was having plenty of freezes and I was religiously selecting a manual M lens profile every time I changed my uncoded lens to another uncoded lens. That was with firmware 1.6.0. When 1.6.1 was out, I already handcoded my lenses, and I don't remember if I had a lens M profile set for uncoded lenses. So I guess it could happen that the camera wasn't able to detect my poorly painted code, goes to Uncoded mode and freezes because there is no manual M lens profile set.

Same here – manually selecting an M lens profile did not stop freezing under 1.6.0, but so far it has worked for me under 1.6.1.

Re: your hand-coding – if the camera was confused by your 6-bit code, you'd be seeing wrong lens profiles in the quick menu. This happened to me before when the 6-bit sensor on the mount got a little dirty and needed to be wiped off – it would show a 28 or 21mm lens code when I had a 35 or 50mm coded lens on there. If this is happening, first wipe off the 6-bit code reader to rule that out. If that doesn't help, I think it makes a lot of sense to very carefully remove your hand coding. But before removing the hand coding, I would first try manually selecting an M profile for any lens you have mounted – that way if the camera gets confused by your hand painted 6-bit code, maybe it will no longer use "Uncoded" and should revert to that manual profile you selected previously. Avoiding "Uncoded" is the key, and once you've manually selected an M lens profile once, you should never see "Uncoded" again in the quick menu.

Edited April 5, 2023 by hdmesa

[Qlan]

It wasn’t showing an incorrect profile.

Anyway, I’ve seen bought 2 Leica lenses and sold one of my CV, so I only have one uncoded lens. Therefore I removed the hand coding since the camera can simply revert to the last M profile manually set. I haven’t used this lens at all, been shooting (<100 shots since the third M11) on the 2 Leica lenses, so can’t tell if the freezes have been fixed. 

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, lct said:

...Freezes should be a thing of the past since FW 1.6.1. The remaining issues seem to come from user errors in selecting lens detection auto for uncoded lenses the camera has no way to detect.

Hi, lct. I quoted this from another thread, but it would have been off topic to discuss over there.

The user error is not selecting Auto, it's having never once selected a manual M lens profile. If the user has never once used a manual M profile, attaching an uncoded lens will show "Uncoded" in the quick menu as the selected lens. "Uncoded" is the cause of the freeze at startup. /the end.

Once a manual M profile is used, the camera will never display "Uncoded" again. After that, any selection can be made in the Lens Detection menu:

• Off
• Auto
• Manual M profile
• Manual R profile

All of them will work with uncoded lenses without causing a freeze at startup as long as "Uncoded" never appears.

Edited April 5, 2023 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

13 hours ago, Qlan said:

It wasn’t showing an incorrect profile.

Anyway, I’ve seen bought 2 Leica lenses and sold one of my CV, so I only have one uncoded lens. Therefore I removed the hand coding since the camera can simply revert to the last M profile manually set. I haven’t used this lens at all, been shooting (<100 shots since the third M11) on the 2 Leica lenses, so can’t tell if the freezes have been fixed. 

I think you will find your freezes never return as long as you never see "Uncoded" in the quick menu when using an uncoded lens. If you do see that, go to the Lens Detection menu and choose a manual M lens profile. After that, you will never see "Uncoded" again and should never have a freeze at startup again regardless of what option you pick in the Lens Detection menu moving forward.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Hi, lct. I quoted this from another thread, but it would have been off topic to discuss over there.

The user error is not selecting Auto, it's having never once selected a manual M lens profile. If the user has never once used a manual M profile, attaching an uncoded lens will show "Uncoded" in the quick menu as the selected lens. "Uncoded" is the cause of the freeze at startup. /the end.

Once a manual M profile is used, the camera will never display "Uncoded" again. After that, any selection can be made in the Lens Detection menu:

• Off
• Auto
• Manual M profile
• Manual R profile

All of them will work with uncoded lenses without causing a freeze at startup as long as "Uncoded" never appears.

We cannot agree on this sorry. I don't see any logical reason to select lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. There is lens detection off for users who don't want a Leica lens profile. Others can either hand-code their lenses or enter their profile manually. I pertain to those three categories of users personally and it works perfectly. 

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[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

We cannot agree on this sorry. I don't see any logical reason to select lens detection auto for uncoded lenses. There is lens detection off for users who don't want a Leica lens profile. Others can either hand-code their lenses or enter their profile manually. I pertain to those three categories of users personally and it works perfectly. 

I didn't say there was a reason to set the camera to Auto then use an uncoded lens, I said you can do so without causing a freeze at startup.

The effect of using Auto only means it will revert to the last used M profile anyway when you attach an uncoded lens. So in my case, right now I have one uncoded lens. Attaching a coded lens sets things to Auto, then when I reattach my uncoded lens, it defaults back to the M lens profile I would have used anyway.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I didn't say there was a reason to set the camera to Auto then use an uncoded lens, I said you can do so without causing a freeze at startup.

i've never got such a freeze under FW 1.6.1 but why would i set the camera to auto if there is no reason to do so? This debate is becoming too complicated for my old brain so i suggest we agree to differ on this otherwise interesting subject