M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hmzimelka]

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1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

When you select "format" on the Leica, are we sure what the M11 does (format or erase all)?

Are the "firmware" files still intact after a "format"?  

Is this description similar to what happens with a Leica M11?  https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/58-troubleshooting-beginner-help/214878-how-put-firmware-update-sd-card.html

 

I think this confirms what you wrote:

https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/formatting-vs-erasing-a-memory-card/

Formatting absolutely gets rid of every file on an SD card on the directory or table of contents level. Every camera formats their media to a specific specification, whether it be FAT16, or FAT32, or EXFAT. It also applies its own file structure afterwards, so basic files, visible or not, can also be written to a card post in-camera format. The may include folder structures or some basic boot files. Who knows with Leica, they have their own system. 

If you format your card in camera, it means the card is absolutely formatted, however it doesn't mean that there won't be data written to it post-format if you happen to insert the card into a computer after the in-camera format. 

 

[hmzimelka]

14 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Actually, on the M11 you have the option of updating firmware wirelessly through the Fotos App.

This is what I do and its pretty effortless

It would be nice if Leica can validate that firmware prior to install undergoes a checksum to make sure that the transfer is perfect or that an install will not proceed if it fails the checksum. Bluetooth connections with Leica cameras have, in my experience, never been the epitome of reliability, so my paranoia to avoid bricking my camera will be to always transfer the firmware to SD card via computer. 

This might be completely irrational and unnecessary, but I'd rather be cautious due to the lack of info I have from Leica or most manufactures for that matter.

[hmzimelka]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Yes, it removes all references to files or folders, but does anyone here know if the internal software in the camera that searches for firmware updates can still access those files?  

The fact that you and I can't "see" deleted images may not have any effect on firmware data.

......I'm just trying to look for unlikely ways that the M11 is getting confused.  If someone has an M11 that is frequently crashing, they could either replace the memory card with a new one, or do a full format of the card, and see if that makes a difference.  You, and I, and 98% of the camera users see the word "format", and assume that the card is wiped clean.  That's what I used to think, until I looked into it, finding the what the camera labels as "format" is really either a "erase all" or a "fast format".  Most of the data remains on the memory card.   

......maybe - I'm trying to think "outside the box".

This is not how storage media works. The data is referenced in a look up table, and the actual data is stored by the controller somewhere on the NAND media. If the card gets formatted, and the index has been erased, the controller essentially addresses every block of data on the media as vacant and ready to be written to. The camera can only see what's on the card in the in the table of contents so to speak. 

There are more variations on one brand's card family, type and size than the consumer would assume or know of
For example, the Extreme Pro 64 GB UHS-I card, might be produced in such number that Sandisk may choose different NAND vendors to put in this card, which means it will need slightly different firmware for the controllers in this card to use this NAND memory. The there may be silent revisions to controllers, or their firmware, that will not be advertised. Its possible to buy two identical cards from the same vendor at the same time and get slightly different internals that only Sandisk knows about.

I'm not sure how difficult it is for a company like Leica to be compatible with every vendor's cards. There are standards in place for these types of media but I'm sure they aren't stuck to religiously or some shortcuts could be taken. 

 

Likewise, Leica can have M11 cameras that have revisions made during production that you and I don't know about. Revisions to all sorts of things, which makes writing firmware even more complicated after the fact. Or Leica's suppliers for boards are just not able to meet the specifications of Leica and a lot of problems slip through QC, which we know Leica seems to struggle with. 

The possibilities for erroneous issues are vast. Doesn't make it acceptable, absolutely not.

Edited December 1, 2022 by hmzimelka

[Kwesi]

15 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

It would be nice if Leica can validate that firmware prior to install undergoes a checksum to make sure that the transfer is perfect or that an install will not proceed if it fails the checksum. Bluetooth connections with Leica cameras have, in my experience, never been the epitome of reliability, so my paranoia to avoid bricking my camera will be to always transfer the firmware to SD card via computer. 

This might be completely irrational and unnecessary, but I'd rather be cautious due to the lack of info I have from Leica or most manufactures for that matter.

It's actually through wifi if that helps alleviate your concerns. It first downloads firmware wirelessly to the camera and then I assume goes through the precautions you outlined above before installing.

[SrMi]

I am pretty sure that UHS II claim is a red herring. I know of several people using UHS II (including me) who have no issues.

[elmars]

Same here. 

[lct]

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And not here on a purely empirical basis . 

[hmzimelka]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

And not here on a purely empirical basis . 

Same.

I'm using "slower" UHS II cards with mostly no issues. As in, no more issues than those I had with my M10M

Cards I use are PRO Grade 128GB UHS II 250 MB/s and Lexar 128GB 1667X. 
 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

I'm using "slower" UHS II cards with mostly no issues

And I'm using UHS I cards with zero issue. As long as we are both happy, that is the main thing 😇.

[hmzimelka]

25 minutes ago, lct said:

And I'm using UHS I cards with zero issue. As long as we are both happy, that is the main thing 😇.

Yeah, I have a UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 90MB/sec that works flawlessly too. My only reason for using UHS-II, the slower ones, is that I can at least have a faster copy rate when it comes to pulling files off the SD card. The M11's claim to be UHS-II compatible is very deceptive. Yes the cards work, but absolutely take no advantage of the speed. Even the internal memory is disappointingly slow. Oh well...

 

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, hmzimelka said:

Yeah, I have a UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro 90MB/sec that works flawlessly too. My only reason for using UHS-II, the slower ones, is that I can at least have a faster copy rate when it comes to pulling files off the SD card. The M11's claim to be UHS-II compatible is very deceptive. Yes the cards work, but absolutely take no advantage of the speed. Even the internal memory is disappointingly slow. Oh well...

It would be interesting to se if the M11 P addresses this. Along with at least double the internal storage

[lucy63]

The sales assistant who sold me my M11 said they've sold a lot of M11s and no problems reported. Until mine that is. 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lucy63 said:

The sales assistant who sold me my M11 said they've sold a lot of M11s and no problems reported. Until mine that is. 

Car salespeople say the same thing. 

[hdmesa]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:56 AM, LeitzFanz said:

I’ve been reading your posts and I suspect this camera has a problem in the main board (could also be wiring issue) that causes these freezes.

I don’t think it is firmware or anything you’re doing. 

Not sure where they’re sourcing the electronics for the M11. Reading the forum here it seems this camera is pretty unreliable. Maybe it’s the source of the electronics during the Covid situation.

 

I’ve been saying this for a while now. I think it’s related to the issue that causes some units to brick/die. If it were firmware, no one would be getting a new replacement camera, they would say a firmware fix is coming.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Car salespeople say the same thing. 

I do not know where you buy your cars and cameras, but there is a huge difference between my car salesman and my camera shop salesman.

[hmzimelka]

5 hours ago, lucy63 said:

The sales assistant who sold me my M11 said they've sold a lot of M11s and no problems reported. Until mine that is. 

Yeah, definitely in line with car salesman speak here... especially at dealerships. 
It's like going to a restaurant and asking the waiter if the food is good. Unless you have established a very good rapport with someone at a camera shop or with a sales rep, I would treat everything they say as a method to make a sale.

If only I have a notebook of all the stuff I've heard tell me or others at the biggest camera retailers in Southern Africa. Should make a most amusing read. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by hmzimelka

[chasdfg]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I’ve been saying this for a while now. I think it’s related to the issue that causes some units to brick/die. If it were firmware, no one would be getting a new replacement camera, they would say a firmware fix is coming.

Unless having a bricked camera means you can't update the firmware at all, which means it has to go back and a new copy be sent

[Fractal]

6 hours ago, lucy63 said:

The sales assistant who sold me my M11 said they've sold a lot of M11s and no problems reported. Until mine that is. 

That sucks, I'm sorry you've had issues.

I'm sure most users are having great experiences, but the videos, this thread and others have turned me away for now. It's unfortunate because on paper the M11 is a near perfect match for what I want.  I hope future iterations of the camera or firmware updates address the issues. While I know things can happen and issues will arise regardless of how tight QC may be or how optimized a camera can be, what I've seen and read with the M11 appears to be more prevalent than what I've seen with other systems. Not to say other cameras are perfect and are free of issues, but it appears there may be something lacking at Leica as far as software development or engineering is concerned. I think having a UHS-II reader in the camera, but then users recommending not to use the cards, regardless of card manufacturer, is telling of what's lacking.

Not trying to bash Leica, I haven't had this much enjoyment in photography for a good while so I really want all their releases to be a success.

 

17 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

It's like going to a restaurant and asking the waiter if the food is good. Unless you have established a very good rapport with someone at a camera shop or with a sales rep, I would treat everything they say as a method to make a sale.

It's funny because the owner of the retailer I purchased my 240 from kept going on about is dissatisfaction with with the M11. He wasn't particularly happy and mentioned he noticed more of his buyers returning it or encountering issues than normal. I guess he wasn't seeing them sell as much lately either.

Although I wasn't looking to get an M11 when I went in and I had already made it clear I was going to buy the M240 by the time he started talking about the M11, I took it as him trying to reinforce my decision at the time, but maybe there was little more to it. I don't know.

[Fractal]

On 11/30/2022 at 5:53 AM, DenverSteve said:

OP, Fractal, you asked how widespread. You have had 1.4k views here, and only a few indicating an issue. If it were “widespread”, you would have dozens of responses indicating a perceived issue. That in no way lessens the frustration of someone who is experiencing such an issue. I haven’t had a single issue of malfunction so, put me down as “no issues”.  Also it’s important to remember that some who experience any sort of one-time glitch will consider that an issue, while others don’t even notice.  However, I don’t use third-party lenses or Sony cards of any type. The lenses shouldn’t be an issue but Sony cards have been known to cause periodic issues for years.

Thanks for your input, I agree with you it's not affecting anywhere near a majority I'm sure. At this point though my concerns are longevity and, it may be a moot point to some, having UHS-II as a feature but not usable from other accounts is unfortunate especially with a 60mp sensor. I'm hoping I'm wrong and more issues don't arise over time with this camera as they get older, but not a risk I want to take right now. I do hope in the future I feel comfortable enough to get the M11 though.

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[Kwesi]

6 minutes ago, Fractal said:

Thanks for your input, I agree with you it's not affecting anywhere near a majority I'm sure. At this point though my concerns are longevity and, it may be a moot point to some, having UHS-II as a feature but not usable from other accounts is unfortunate especially with a 60mp sensor. I'm hoping I'm wrong and more issues don't arise over time with this camera as they get older, but not a risk I want to take right now. I do hope in the future I feel comfortable enough to get the M11 though

Not trying to change your mind but for the record, I’ve only used sandisk UHS II cards in my M11 since January and have had no issues.