Relative cost of the RF system?

[dpitt]

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Just wondering... What is the actual production cost of the RF mechanics and optics inside the M11 body (or in the other M bodies)?
In other words:
How much % of what you pay for the M11 is spent on this system?

[robsonj]

Material cost or labour? As we’re talking about a hand assembled precision instrument, so I imagine the labour cost is a significant factor.

Edited December 23, 2022 by robsonj

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb dpitt:

Just wondering... What is the actual production cost of the RF mechanics and optics inside the M11 body (or in the other M bodies)?
In other words:
How much % of what you pay for the M11 is spent on this system?

What is your guess?

The way how you ask the question will not render good answers . . . I am sorry. Whatever contribution marging you want totake: Nobody has the precise figure. Maybe Leica?

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb robsonj:

Material cost or labour?

Or Marketing and sales. Or research? 

[dpitt]

Thanks for the answers so far.

5 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

What is your guess?

The way how you ask the question will not render good answers . . . I am sorry. Whatever contribution marging you want totake: Nobody has the precise figure. Maybe Leica?

I mean just a guess of what it costs relative to the sale price of the camera. And with cost, I mean the cost labour + parts + marketing + margin. (R&D not included) It does not have to be precise.
I know it is a difficult question and even Leica might not know exactly. In other words, if they leave out the complete RF, how much would it drop in price? Kind of just like the M1 in the past.

It would be interesting to know what effort is needed to make the M an M. Without RF it basically is just an other very good camera.

My guess is probably around half of the price of the new M6, so that would make 25% of the M11.

[UliWer]

Nobody, who does not have a precise sight into Leica's books can tell you.

Any assumption that leaving out something from a Leica M camera will make it cheaper does not reflect the Leica reality (you might look at the models without display or the Monochroms without bayer filters). 

So if they would leave out the optical viewfinder and put in an EVF, you'd have to expect a price increase. Some years later they would offer a "retro" model with optical viewfinder - with a price increase.   

[dpitt]

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17 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Any assumption that leaving out something from a Leica M camera will make it cheaper does not reflect the Leica reality (you might look at the models without display or the Monochroms without bayer filters). 

So if they would leave out the optical viewfinder and put in an EVF, you'd have to expect a price increase. Some years later they would offer a "retro" model with optical viewfinder - with a price increase.   

Yes, i am afraid you are right. But I did not mean them to build in anything else.
Just like the M1 of the sixties was i.e. a M2 without the rangefinder, you would need to leave out the RF system. Users can then just use it with liveview or the optional EVF. And I know they probably will never release this.

Just knowing how much would be interesting to appreciate the effort they make to go (almost) solo against the trend of reflex and mirrorless.

Edited December 23, 2022 by dpitt

[UliWer]

vor 1 Minute schrieb dpitt:

Just like the M1 of the sixties was i.e. a M2 without the rangefinder,

The M1 was a mode lLeitz made on request of the military (they don't need precise focus, the enemy is always at infinity...). Though the military people didn't buy enough and so they offered the M1 to all customers - and offered an upgrade to an M2 as well (the sum of the M1 and the upgrade being more expensive than an M2). Similar with the earlier Ic and If or IIf models for screwmount: invitation to upgrades. 

[dpitt]

Do you have a pricelist of that time. M1, M2 and upgrade price?

[adan]

Relative cost of the RF/VF assembly (from the back of the lens to your eye)?

On the close order of $1000-$1200 production cost for the unit. Maybe even a bit higher these days. Which would be about 15%/30% (digital/analog) of Leica's expense for a body.

Put another way, to have a complete factory-fresh RF/VF installed by Leica in 2010 was around $1000, of which $700-750 (2010 dollars) was the "part" itself - now add in a dozen years of inflation and other price increases.

If you see prices less than that, check what was actually done. Because they are probably partial replacements (different frameline set, MP-type flare-resistant prism, prism recemented, etc.), not an entire new RF/VF. Or used "pre-owned" replacements from parts cameras, by third-party service techs.

[lct]

If Leica decided to launch an EVF-M its price would be high enough to avoid cannibalizing RF bodies i guess so down-to-earth things like cost of the RF would play a little role in that decision but i may be wrong.

 

[jdlaing]

$1,753.10

[sometimesmaybe]

14 hours ago, UliWer said:

the enemy is always at infinity...

🤣

[raizans]

Last I heard, a new MP rangefinder assembly from Leica (before the parts ban) was $800.

[jaapv]

since then it has been upgraded, tolerances tightened, etc.