Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Matlock]

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13 hours ago, Huss said:

I have heard from two others, who wish to remain silent, that their's scratch film too.  And the vast majority of users are not on this site.

So we are dealing with threes again are we? 🙂 I know of two which do not scratch the film but I am not sure if that proves anything at this time.

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[Huss]

1 minute ago, Matlock said:

So we are dealing with threes again are we? 🙂 I know of two which do not scratch the film but I am not sure if that proves anything at this time.

So far we have a population of five.  Three scratch, two maybe only itch.

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

So far we have a population of five.  Three scratch, two maybe only itch.

As they say "watch this space" 🙂 

[TomB_tx]

All the talk of Leica’s QC issues reminds me of when the M4 first came out. One of the photo magazines did a comprehensive test and review that included a complete tear-down and examination by (I believe) Norman Goldberg. His comment was that it was a very good camera, once he finished up a few thing for them…

[Mike Rawcs]

7 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

All the talk of Leica’s QC issues reminds me of when the M4 first came out. One of the photo magazines did a comprehensive test and review that included a complete tear-down and examination by (I believe) Norman Goldberg. His comment was that it was a very good camera, once he finished up a few thing for them…

I remember that! Either Modern Photography of Popular Photography.

[Huss]

I have been informed that it will be about six weeks before I get the camera back.  It is in the queue...

When my Nikon F6 needed its AF repaired, I got it back in five days.

[logan2z]

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2 hours ago, Huss said:

I have been informed that it will be about six weeks before I get the camera back.  It is in the queue...

When my Nikon F6 needed its AF repaired, I got it back in five days.

Bummer.  They really need a better process for dealing with DOAs.  

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

It is in the queue...

wonder how many defective new m6 cameras are in that queue?

[Huss]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

Bummer.  They really need a better process for dealing with DOAs.  

Yeah, if you get a brand new defective camera it seems that Leica should prioritize the repair of those.

[Aryel]

42 minutes ago, Huss said:

Yeah, if you get a brand new defective camera it seems that Leica should prioritize the repair of those.

The scary part is that maybe they do…

[Mikep996]

The following is an observation so if you are hoping for something useful or helpful, the old movie quote is appropriate..."Move along, there is nothing to see here..." 😉

Every product, from screwdrivers to airplanes, has a failure rate that is considered acceptable by manufacturers and, if appropriate, government regulations.  As an example, it may come as a surprise but there is an acceptable "failure rate" in the air traffic control system.  Yep, if you are assuming that the number of acceptable collisions is zero, you would be wrong.  😱   

But don't worry, that particular rate is EXTREMELY low.   For aircraft flying across the North Atlantic the "acceptable failure rate" calculates to one air traffic control-caused collision every 150 years!  (No, I'm not making this up or basing it on some internet pundit's article. I spent 33 years in that particular field of aviation and for the last 10 years was part of the US delegation to an annual international meeting in which the specific collision risk figures/calculations were part of the agenda/discussion).  

    Now that we have reminded ourselves that everything can fail, let's shift from the vanishingly low chances of falling out of the sky over the ocean to the important topic of M6 film scratching.🤔

The 'failure rate' for the new M6 is difficult for us to determine because we have no idea how many new M6's have been produced so far AND how many of them are scratching film or are otherwise defective.  From research I have found that most consumer products seem to have an acceptable failure rate of 2% for major problems that make the item unusable and around 4% for other issues that may be annoying but still allow the product to function correctly. 

I would expect that returned products in the 2% category would be a higher priority for repair than one in the 4% category.  IMO an M6 with a cosmetic issue would fit in the 4% but scratching film SHOULD (IMO) make it unusable, placing it in the 2% category.  However, someone in marketing or accounting could argue that the film-scratcher still "functions correctly" so they might direct it to the slower 4% queue for repair.  OTOH, at Leica there may be only one queue and all repairs, regardless of 'severity' are simply taken in the order they arrive.  IOW, no triage-like evaluation.

Leica, not being all that large compared to say, Nikon, I would assume their repair capability is considerably less.  Huss noted his Nikon F6's five day turn-around where Leica seems to use a similar number but in weeks instead of days!  😳

Hmm...maybe if film had a kevlar base...🤣

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Mikep996

[archive_all]

18 hours ago, Huss said:

I have been informed that it will be about six weeks before I get the camera back.  It is in the queue...

When my Nikon F6 needed its AF repaired, I got it back in five days.

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

[lmans]

2 hours ago, archive_all said:

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

Don’t read more into this forum post than is needed. Essentially a ‘few’ people have turned you off by complaining about ‘true’ issues but in no way can one extrapolate a ‘few issues’ to the entire Leica production line. 

My point, ….as I attempted to respond to them with only being put off/down. Think for yourself… be realistic. Don’t be chased away by a continuous negative rant from a few. 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, archive_all said:

I wonder if that is a new camera repair queue or the general queue? Either way in a normal world outside of the Leicaverse that would be considered unacceptable. Is it acceptable that this film scratching issue is a known problem yet they continue to sell cameras with whatever batch of the part(s) causing this (for 2+ years?)? I was looking to buy a new film M but all of this has given me pause. I'm not willing to buy an absurdly expensive anything to risk having an issue that can't quickly and easily be resolved. Yes you can always return it if you don't want to wait but why bother going through the headache. 

Are you looking for someone to tell you what to do?
If you want to shoot 35mm film you have a few options:

• Buy a new Leica.
• Buy a Lomography, Kodak, Ilford cheap camera. Are you sure they won't scratch your film? Would it matter if they did? 
• Buy a used camera, one of the zillions out there, all of which could have faults.
• Don't shoot 35mm film.

Your call.
Sorted it for you.

Now, what other life choices would you like us to make for you?

[BradS]

6 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

.... From research, I have found that most consumer products seem to have an acceptable failure rate of 2% for major problems that make the item unusable ...

 

It depends, of course, on the production volume and producer's cost.

High volume (millions a day) production would never tolerate 2% failure rate for an item that cost $1 to produce. Same is true for production volume of 1000's a day where the producer's cost is in the 10's of thousands.  Leica, with relatively low volume and relatively modest cost, is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. They might very well accept a 2% failure rate....that's 100 failures in every 5000 made.

[Huss]

For all those claiming that defective Leicas are super dooper rare.. ask yourself one question.

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

The last Leica I bought new was the M9 (ME version).  When the sensor failed on that one under warranty - and that model camera basically had a 100% sensor failure rate - it took four months for the repair.  Perhaps I should be happy that I have been quoted six weeks vs four months?

[lmans]

9 minutes ago, Huss said:

For all those claiming that defective Leicas are super dooper rare.. ask yourself one question.

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

The last Leica I bought new was the M9 (ME version).  When the sensor failed on that one under warranty - and that model camera basically had a 100% sensor failure rate - it took four months for the repair.  Perhaps I should be happy that I have been quoted six weeks vs four months?

I would demand a refund and purchase a used OM1. Even if a CLA is needed… you could get one , plus any Zuiko lens you want, if not a complete lineup of, and have money for many beers to drown out your Leica woes. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by lmans

[Huss]

8 minutes ago, lmans said:

I would demand a refund and purchase a used OM1. Even if a CLA is needed… you could get one , plus any Zuiko lens you want, if not a complete lineup of, and have money for many beers to drown out your Leica woes. 

No woes, why would I want your suggestion when I have perfectly working M3, MP, M-A, M5, M7?
 

but i do notice you completely ignored my question.  Why on earth is the wait for Leica repair so long?

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[wattsy]

22 minutes ago, Huss said:

why would it take six weeks to repair one?  Why is the repair queue so long?  Could it be… that’s because there are so many defective Leicas waiting for repair?  Or, and I’m sure this is the excuse the leica-bois will give, it’s because there is only one dood there, and he works half days  two days a week.  And takes one week off every month.

When one of my M-As went back to Germany for service in (I think) 2016, I was informed by a reliable contact at Leica UK that there was actually only one person in Wetzlar doing film camera repairs. And (you may think I'm making this up) I was told he was working part-time. 😂 That, of course, was then. I have no idea what the situation is today but I can imagine (at least hope) that they have trained up some additional staff during the last 6 years.

[archive_all]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Are you looking for someone to tell you what to do?
If you want to shoot 35mm film you have a few options:

• Buy a new Leica.
• Buy a Lomography, Kodak, Ilford cheap camera. Are you sure they won't scratch your film? Would it matter if they did? 
• Buy a used camera, one of the zillions out there, all of which could have faults.
• Don't shoot 35mm film.

Your call.
Sorted it for you.

Now, what other life choices would you like us to make for you?

No, not at all. Actually, I think I stated an answer even though it was a rhetorical question and I wasn't looking for advice but thanks a ton for your time and effort. I also won't defend the brand in this circumstance. Let's face it, for these prices to have to send a brand new camera out for repair with a 3 month wait is ridiculous and it's not like they have in stock units that can be exchanged. I feel for @Huss's situation.