Buying into the Digital M System

[JuveFC]

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I am a current owner of a Leica Q2 and Leica M6/M3 along with being invested in the Fuji ecosystem as well. I've decided to sell off my Fuji gear and pick up a M digital body but I am unsure which I should aim for. 

I currently have the budget to pick up an M10 but was wondering if a M240 or M262 would suffice? I don't need video. 24MP is fine for me. For low light I would use the Q2. I mostly want to use the M digital body for shooting outdoors during the day and also to be able to justify owning expensive Leica glass without only using them with the film cameras. Connecting to Leica Fotos would be great. 

I can also buy an M10-R or M11 if i sell off the Q2 but I've thought hard about that option and I just can't see myself parting with it.

[hteasley]

Low light performance has gotten better and better. The M11 is amazing. The M10 was pretty good, and a lot better than the M240, in my experience. M240 is also too fat: I like the film M proportions.

[lct]

What lenses do you intend to use?

[JuveFC]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

What lenses do you intend to use?

All 50mm+ ...I mostly use my film cameras for portraits and i'm limited in that regard with my Q2 (minus environmental portraits)

- 90mm f/2.8 TELE-ELMARIT

- 75mm f1/4 SUMMILUX

- 50mm f/1.4 SUMMILUX (non-ASPH)

- CV 50mm F/2.0 APO

Edited December 5, 2022 by JuveFC

[johnwolf]

I had real difficulty with the 240 series body width. As an M6 & M3 user it's probably something to consider. It was one of the reasons for selling my M246.

John

[250swb]

2 hours ago, JuveFC said:

I am a current owner of a Leica Q2 and Leica M6/M3 along with being invested in the Fuji ecosystem as well. I've decided to sell off my Fuji gear and pick up a M digital body but I am unsure which I should aim for. 

I currently have the budget to pick up an M10 but was wondering if a M240 or M262 would suffice? I don't need video. 24MP is fine for me. For low light I would use the Q2. I mostly want to use the M digital body for shooting outdoors during the day and also to be able to justify owning expensive Leica glass without only using them with the film cameras. Connecting to Leica Fotos would be great. 

I can also buy an M10-R or M11 if i sell off the Q2 but I've thought hard about that option and I just can't see myself parting with it.

I think your reasoning is very sound, an M240 would be a good choice and at least get you into digital M bodies without all the crap about needing 'the latest and the best'. You have a Q2 for any low light work, but not that the M240 is terrible. You have to think how many times do people use the low light abilities of an M10 or M11 anyway, you pay a lot for not much extra functionality if you are a daylight shooter as you say you are. 24mp is fine if you want to make great pictures, and megapixels don't make a great photograph anyway and only rarely make a difference. In particular you could well appreciate the slightly noisier high ISO files from the M240 if you are coming from film M's, there is nothing worse than than the bland perfection of M11 files (imo). 

[lct]

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3 hours ago, JuveFC said:

All 50mm+ ...I mostly use my film cameras for portraits and i'm limited in that regard with my Q2 (minus environmental portraits)

- 90mm f/2.8 TELE-ELMARIT

- 75mm f1/4 SUMMILUX

- 50mm f/1.4 SUMMILUX (non-ASPH)

- CV 50mm F/2.0 APO

Thank you. I was asking because the M240 tends to produce red edges on some UWA lenses but not on yours, at least your Leica ones as i have no experience with the CV 50/2 apo. I would not expect any problem with 50mm lenses in general though. The M240 is a fine camera if you don't have to shoot above 3200 iso. If you do, better choose an M10 or an M11. Also the EVF aka Visoflex of the M240 is outdated. If you intend to shoot a lot in LV mode, better choose an M11.

[wda]

57 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Whatever you do, start at M10, nothing earlier. First hand real life experience. M240 shadow recovery was all green and the buffer was 7 pics only.

A personal colour profile would sort your colour problem

Get the 240 MP, which has a bigger buffer, if that is important to you. 

[pgk]

14 hours ago, JuveFC said:

I currently have the budget to pick up an M10 but was wondering if a M240 or M262 would suffice?

I still use M9s, which still produce excellent images despite being old, although they are now getting on so given the price difference are probably not a good solution for you as the M240/262. But if you look at images from the M240/262 of the sort of pictures you take, I am sure that you will find that they are highly competent cameras. Buy one at a good price and you are not likely to lose much money on it should you want to upgrade it later, so if you have any doubts I would suggest that this is a reasonable route to take. Having the latest and greatest isn't going to dramatically change your images unless there is a compelling reason for requiring specific features or capabilities. Many of the incremental progressions which feature on the current versions of cameras do very little to enhance real world photography. I have made prints at nearly 30" x 20" off my M9s and have no problems with enjoying, or indeed on occasion selling, them. M240/262 cameras will no doubt produce technically excellent images too.

[pippy]

14 hours ago, JuveFC said:

...I currently have the budget to pick up an M10 but was wondering if a M240 or M262 would suffice? I don't need video. 24MP is fine for me. For low light I would use the Q2. I mostly want to use the M digital body for shooting outdoors during the day...

Considering the part quoted above IMO the answer to your question is a very definite "Yes" and for the same reasons mentioned by Steve and Paul in posts #7 and #12.

Philip.

Edited December 6, 2022 by pippy

[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

just an unnecessary extra step in workflow optimization.

I own the M9/M10/M10R and I used to own the 240 (I’ve also had the Fuji XT1, X-Pro 1 and 2 and X100s)

I quite liked the 240 but for me (OMMV) it had, as Al says above, just too many extra steps in the workflow.

IR contamination = use an IR filter

Green shadows = use an LR plug-in that Jonathan Perkins developed and is floating round the internet

Heavy banding in pushed files = use the de-banding tool in NIK DFine

In the end I tired of it (especially stacking an IR filter with an ND one), bought an M10 and enjoyed a far nicer workflow, from a camera that felt far nicer in my hand, and had a better OVF, better high ISO performance and (subjectively to me) nicer colours and also less cluttered menus

PERSONALLY… I’d find the extra for the M10. (The 10R is a better camera again, but the R is over £1000 more than the 10 on the secondhand market and it’s not that £ much better)

1 hour ago, wda said:

A personal colour profile would sort your colour problem

Not here it wouldn’t. The 240 green shadows are caused by the way the 240 handles RAW values. I mean one could possibly create a profile that fixes that particular issue, for use only when that issue occurs, but I feel it would require a custom Profile LUT not something that can be done in the freeware available from someone like X-Rite

Source for the green shadows cause

Quote

About a year ago, I identified a problem with the Leica M240. There is a clipping of very low raw values and a non-linearity near zero for those values that leads to problems in the shadows of  images pushed in post. Since, for most lighting conditions and subjects, the green channel is the brightest one, the suppression of information near zero leaves the green channel the least affected, and results in the shadows assuming a slight green cast with gentle post-processing, and a bilious look if you push hard.

 

[JuveFC]

Thank you all for the responses! 

I am still leaning M10 but options are still open for the M240/M262. I am usually a very impatient person so I'm continuing to scope out the used market vs just jumping on any I see listed. 

The main issue is that I'm a stickler for clean cameras. I don't mind a few rub marks here and there but I'm looking to pick up a clean M which is difficult when we're talking about a 10 year old M240. I see a good amount of M10s at reasonable prices but a little on the "rough" side when it comes to aesthetics. Not that bad but again, I baby my stuff so some things just bother me. 

I've been researching this for a while and locally the difference between an M10 and M240 is about $1200USD. 

[KFo]

Something worth considering is the interface similarities between the 240 and Q2.  I suspect they are completely different.

I went through a similar decision process a few years ago moving from Fuji to Leica.  After playing around a bit with the "old digital Leica" stuff I found the M10P to be vastly superior in every way that mattered to me.

Hopefully you can goto a shop that has a sample of these; at that time I was in LA so it very easy for me to compare.

Ultimately these are consumer electronic devices. I would go with the latest model I could afford.

[wda]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

That (or the custom Adobe action for de-greening DNG files in shadows) is just an unnecessary extra step in workflow optimization.

I think it's unlikely to sway the OP.  However, I wish to stress that once you have created your colour profile, to suit your tastes, that is it. No extra steps. Just make sure you import your new files with your profile attached. Simple. Your corrections are automatically applied. No further interventions are needed, unless you make further permanent changes to your profile. The process is automatic. I have personal profiles for all of my cameras, even old ones which only see occasional use. They are a great time-saver.

[Kwesi]

18 hours ago, JuveFC said:

I am a current owner of a Leica Q2 and Leica M6/M3

Sell the M3 along with the Fuji stuff and get an M11. Case closed.

[wda]

10 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

This is only true if you are using one camera model or camera system for your work. If not (like me), it is an extra step to wrangle profiles 😊. However, I think it will be rather difficult to correct the greens only in shadows with the profile without affecting the rest of the greens like @Adam Bonn said above.

Do you use a calibrated grey card prior to making exposures?

[LocalHero1953]

Ex-M240 (and ex-M9) owner here - I would be very happy to still have it, but my usage bifurcated between the SL and the CL and the M lost out in between. You're not looking for low-light/night-time performance, so it would suit your needs - and it's great for portraits. I developed my own colour profile at the start, but Leica's colour improved in firmware iterations. I'm not a great fan of Fuji colours (greens) compared to Leica's - but again, that is a personal thing - you can decide.

[LocalHero1953]

If you are pulling up under-exposed shadows then speckledy greens and banding are something you might be concerned about. For daytime shooting and portraits it never was for me - I usually let deep shadows stay as deep shadows.

I had occasional IR contamination on my M9, and added an IR cut filter, but never had the need on the M240.

I make these comments not to denigrate those for whom they have been a problem, but just to explain that they may be big or negligible issues depending on what and how you shoot.

Edited December 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[JuveFC]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

Sell the M3 along with the Fuji stuff and get an M11. Case closed.

Both my M3 and M6 are heirlooms so unsellable to me. I'd prefer to sell the Q2. If I did sell the Q then for sure i'd pick up the M11 but personally i'd still love to own a camera that can auto-focus. 

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[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, JuveFC said:

Both my M3 and M6 are heirlooms so unsellable to me. I'd prefer to sell the Q2. If I did sell the Q then for sure i'd pick up the M11 but personally i'd still love to own a camera that can auto-focus. 

Got it. Definitely hold onto the Q2. Another option would be to hold off until the M11-P arrives (most likely in June) which usually creates a glut of the non-P model in the second hand market. thing is the M240 is a fine but dated camera. The M10 is a solid choice - especially the "P" version that kind of brings to a close the first goal of Leica to bring to market a full frame digital M. The M11 really is the second chapter in that journey, now focusing on connectivity, begins exploring the electronic shutter as a viable option, and 100% real time off the sensor metering. Like the beginning of any new venture there have been some teething problems but my oh my that BSI sensor along with Leica's color science is such a joy to work with.