Leica SL2-S brand new with M-L Adapter for under $4K, Offer expires TONIGHT. Buy it or not?

[lencap]

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Despite all the rumors of the soon to arrive SL3, the SL2-S still remains a very fine camera.  I received a Leica email offering a $1300 discount on a brand new camera, and Leica also includes a Leica M-L Adapter in the package offer that expires TONIGHT!  Including the adapter that's a $1750 discount, a pretty rare event, and one that has my full attention.

I sold my SL 601 recently, largely because of weight with the 24-90 zoom or the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 ART lens, both of which I owned.  I somewhat miss the SL platform, and wonder if I should jump back in.  Yes, I'm a bit bi-polar in my decision making, but my reasoning is that at $4K for the body and adapter there doesn't seem to be a lot of resale price risk and I can explore if the newer body eliminates some of the issues I had with the 601.  

The Q was by far my preferred camera, but the 28mm focal length wasn't something I ever got comfortable with.  And, truth be told, as "obsolete" and "limited" as the M body is in today's camera landscape, it still keeps whispering my name.  Then they reissued the M6 - that's not fair!  So my bipolar self is fighting between the "latest and greatest" autofocus SL2-S body/lens, or the "old school" totally "obsolete" M body with manual focus lenses and film.  And to top it off the Leica converter offer ends tonight!  I have 3+ hours to decide.  

So, BUY it or PASS?

[Photoworks]

I tend to buy lots of equipment used.

often I can resell other stuff with out loosing to much. and I consider what I lose an affordable rental price.

take a look at this

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/544243354184097/?media_id=0&ref=share_attachment

[lct]

I'm not the best person to ask as i would not even pay $1750 to get such a bulky camera but it won't be any lighter than the SL601 you sold because of weight anyway. Smells GAS . 

[gotium]

I was tempted by this also but getting to hold one again recently reminded me that it's JUST TOO BIG

[Jeff S]

Extra $450 deal has been going on for a week, but the $1300 savings continues til Dec 31. If you wait and decide you want the camera enough, still a good deal, and if not, you’ll pass the GAS, so to speak.

And the bundle with the 24-70 saves $2300.

Neither deal reduces the size or weight, just the cost.  My M and SL2 systems serve very different needs; no confusion.

Jeff

Edited November 30, 2022 by Jeff S

[lencap]

Thanks for the replies, especially so given the short time left to decide.

Some very highly accurate comments:

 - Smells GAS

-  I tend to buy lots of equipment used.  I consider what I lose an affordable rental price.

-  I would not even pay $1750 to get such a bulky camera.

-  It's JUST TOO BIG.

-  You'll pass the GAS, so to speak (Jeff, you have a way with words!)

 

One of the nice things about this forum is the large number of very knowledgable members willing to share their experiences and informed commentary.  Another is the ability to get to the heart of the matter with kindness and diplomacy.  Thank you.

My ADHD seems to be flaring up again, and you've saved me the cost of a therapy session!

Thanks for the replies, especially so given the short time left to decide.

I believe the decision is pretty obvious in context of the comments - my grandsons' 529 plans thank you!

Edited November 30, 2022 by lencap

[Jeff S]

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I added a few words while you typed, but seems you already cleared your mind. 

Enjoy shooting.

Jeff

[robb]

I have SL2 and an SL2-s with the -s actually one of my favorite cameras I’ve ever shot with.  I say buy it.  Leave the tripod at home.  Combine with apo primes and marvel at your images in any light or night…  pricing is hard to beat even if a new, much more expensive SL3 is around the corner..

Robb

[lencap]

I think part of my problem is of my own making.  I've owned many camera brands over the years, finding Leica and Hasselblad to be my favorites.  Both camera brands were added relatively late in my photography journey, since spending the money to acquire either Leica or Hasselblad wasn't feasible with a growing family.  When I acquired each brand I admit that I felt that I had reached camera nirvana.  That added to the enjoyment, even if it was thinly disguised GAS.

The truth is that wasn't true, not because the camera brands were, as some say, "overpriced status symbols", but rather that my photography skills were revealed to be lacking.  Shooting film decades ago, and some more recently, the "sensor" of film is pretty different from 60 megapixel sensors.  Lens optics, at least as measured by modern techniques, have come a long way and reveal levels of detail not available decades ago.  Images were rarely perfect.  The medium was the limiting factor.  Today any shortfall in my images is likely do to "operator error" - that's me, not the gear.  And it doesn't get better with age.

The ability to correct digital images in Lightroom and the rest of the tools makes it relatively simple to produce an acceptable image, but the magic of creation is somewhat lost, at least for me, as I've written in other posts.  So what was left, oddly, seems to be nostalgia for "the good old days" of my earlier photography years where the image mattered more than the gear did, and film images were produced magically by the local camera store.  I'm likely not alone as Leica seems to acknowledge with the reintroduction of the classic M6 film camera.  

Digital imposes that I be the photographer and the developer - and I'm not good at it and don't have the time or patience to learn how to do it.  (Warning:  I'm a senior citizen, we get cranky easily).

My SL 601 with 24-90 lens weighed nearly 5 pounds.  That wasn't the biggest issue, although it was an issue, it was that on the supplied Leica strap carrying it on the shoulder the lens/camera balance was terrible, and it became uncomfortable pretty quickly.  So, I left it home and took the Q.  And that was fine until I ran into the limits of a 28mm focal length for portrait and other images.  The iPhone solved most of these issues, and it really bothered me that it did.  

What's even more difficult for me to accept is the performance of the iPhone 14 Pro that I recently bought.  Yes, it's a phone camera, but the images that it produces surprise me.  Apple went a different way - instead of the traditional way of creating images, they've moved to computational imaging, allowing software/programming to optimize an image in camera.  You can argue with the results or the method of generating the image, but frankly I continue to be surprised by the quality of the iPhone's results.

Add to that the simple fact that a 48MP camera is always in my pocket, can shoot stills and pretty sophisticated movies while sending either to any kind of device or platform instantly without processing.  My $999 iPhone is with me all the time, and costs about the equivalent of the sales tax of a Leica SL2 with the 24-90 lens, and it can produce better images than I can with gear that is state of the art.

That's why I was tempted to buy the SL2-S.  It's not that I need the camera, or that the SL2-S image quality is unsurpassed.  It's that I have a hard time accepting that computational photography is supplanting traditional photography.  My hobby is morphing into something I don't recognize and don't want.  I didn't want to be part of the new world of photography were a few mouse clicks replaces years of developing a skill.  

I'm having a hard time accepting that a simple camera phone can deliver impressive images effortlessly.  So my reaction was to go back to what I last enjoyed - a high quality product from a company with a long and distinguished history.  I accepted that despite whatever shortcomings or compromises I had to make, or what the limitations of a particular product may have, because the enjoyment was worth it.  

Now I'm not so sure, and that's the problem.

Edited November 30, 2022 by lencap

[leicabug]

Leica rarely go on sale.  SL-2S is the best value now.  M lenses on SL2 are not bulky at all. 
 

[lencap]

LB - Your point is well taken, but it also highlights my "issue". 

The SL is designed with automation as central to the platform.  In "pure" form an SL lens works best on a SL platform.  From my perspective the same is true for the M platform.  The M platform is 70+ years old, but it's a balanced package - small body, small lenses.   Clearly you can mix/match as you prefer, but the designer's intent is to maximize performance as a system on a given platform.  

To me it's confusing.  Why buy a Ferrari to drive to Home Depot?  Get the right tool for the job.  That historically has been the M body/lens combo. Now, it seems to be more segmented.  Neither choice is wrong or right, just different.  And that's part of my challenge.  What I want is to take/create images.  What tool allows that to happen with the least effort for the product/result I want to create?  

I don't have an answer, but it's hard to ignore the challenge that camera phones present as an easy to carry all in one solution with great flexibility and very acceptable results.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by lencap

[Jeff S]

My joy in film days… from early 70’s until 2009…came from turning worthy pics into worthy prints in my darkroom(s).  Since then, the tools have changed, the darkroom is now a ‘lightroom’, but the pics/prints remain the goal. Helps dissipate GAS for me. Doesn’t mean that new gear can’t satisfy, however… the M10 Monochrom is the most satisfying camera since my film days, and the prints can be delightful. Whatever floats one’s boat.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

I only use my phone camera for simple documentary purposes, but you might be interested in this Kelby talk, including 20 iPhone camera tips, if that’s your brand…
 

 

Jeff

[robb]

I break it down this way as a long time professional:

if I am creating a photo for a client or for something that matters to me, I use a “real camera” choosing one based on primarily print size or potential print size needs with other capabilities needed.  Regardless of apple iPhone billboards or marketing, the iPhone is great but not a “real camera” in my wheelhouse for this level of work.

If I am traveling for myself and plan on coming across something that matters to me, I take a “real camera” even if that camera lens combo is smaller than normal or less number of lenses, etc…

for these images and scenarios, I will always process the images fully on my computers and use them to exhibit my personal standards for my work.  I don’t post unprocessed photos, I don’t send text images of these until they have actually been edited and processed properly.

I always have my iPhone with me but will only use the camera for things that need to be sent right away (even though a Leica app can also do this)  to friends and family or document something interesting or more matter of fact.  Basically it’s more for things that don’t critically matter to me although I can still love the image or memory… I don’t spend time modifying or processing these photos.  
 

so, I’m old school but just ask yourself, do you want to create a photo that matters to you, or just grab something that’s convenient and disposable.  I know many others will disagree with this outlook because of tech advances but it’s just my easy way to pick the best tool for me.

I still say pick up an SL2-s and some great m lenses (to keep it lighter for you) and enjoy the whole process more.  One that matters to you.

Robb

[LocalHero1953]

I'm exactly with Robb here. The SL series is for professional work (his case) or unpaid work for others (my case: theatre, portraits); the Q2* is for my photography where I want something light and compact that still produces images of the highest technical quality within its use envelope (travel, social); the phone (my iphone) is my digital notebook, always to hand for quick reference or occasional social media, but not the quickest or most versatile, and with limitations after image capture (uploading, processing). 

To the OP. If the SL was too large and heavy then the SL2-S will be too large and heavy. What was the question again?

 

*Edit. In other circumstances this has been a M or a CL, but for me now the Q2 is just what I want. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[lencap]

Thank you Robb for the clear and well thought out approach to photography, and matching the gear with the task at hand.  I guess using your scale I really don't need a purely professional setup, but I will give more thought to what is the best setup for me when I want to capture/create something that matters to me.  As I look back over photos taken over  nearly seven decades the images that mean the most to me were mostly taken on film cameras, and most of those were black/white.  They're not technically perfect, or even composed with great skill, but they capture the "essence" and "feeling" of the subject, and that was my intent.  Perhaps experimenting with film again is worth the effort, even if it's starting with a Canon AE-1 or something similar.  I enjoyed having a camera that made me think about what I wanted to accomplish before pressing the shutter.  For me, "spray and pray" hasn't been even remotely appealing.  I do tend to process my digital images before sharing them, but I'm not very skilled at Lightroom/Photoshop and often get frustrated with the process.  It's also hard to know when the image is "finished" - I find myself losing hours of time making small adjustments that are hardly visible, and almost meaningless if the image isn't printed.

Yes, the SL was large and heavy, but it also felt like a "professional camera", similar to how I felt years ago shooting with a Nikon F3.  That camera made me want to compose and capture images, not take snapshots.  That's why I still considered the SL2-S, realizing there are sacrifices/compromises I will have to make to get the image I want.  

[Photoworks]

I think you not looking at a professional camera, just a camera to get inspired and capture moments.

You say that the iPhone 14 does great photos.
Well it is of for some situations, it is only high MP if you shoot in RAW and activate the function.

I would suggest to try the Iphone in all situations you may be, I found that the phone try to mimic a photography camera and can get you close.
The real challenges come when the light is low and iPhone images become horrible, often unusable for any print.

If you consider a camera try to think of something that you like to do.

For myself, my Leica M takes me places, I like to go on walks to take images, I like to explore with camera in hand when traveling, and take pictures to share with family and friends.
A Leica is so simple and nice to use that takes me outside, I have many camera system, non of the other make me go out to be creative. they work fine and take the same images. Same as the iPhone

Since coming back to a digital M I was able go everywhere with it, often with only one lens. My confidence and skills have improved drastically, and I can apply that in all situation.

I can see many people like a small package , something that can be portable, I would suggest Q2, a digital M with a35mm, or the Sl2-s with sigma 28-70.
It may not do everything, but some limitation will help to be creative and enjoy results.

Only you can make the decision what is right for you.

[Camaro5]

I switched from an M10-R to a SL2-S and while the -S is bigger I haven't found it to be so big that I can't carry it around for a day.  It has features that the M's don't have and the images IMO are every bit as good with the SL lenses.  I needed the IBIS and auto-focus and the trade-off was worth it.  The 35 SL APO is particularly good, especially in multi-shot mode for landscapes.  The zooms have been nice for the car shows and events I do, and for wildlife on those occasions when they're needed.  

I haven't really found a circumstance where I thought the M10-R would've done a better job.  

[Luke_Miller]

I've discovered that I am equally a "process" and "results" photographer.  By that I mean how much I enjoy using the camera in hand is as important as the images I capture with it.  It wasn't always that way.  I have a cabinet of equipment capable of producing superb images that I now regard as tools to be used on a job.  I have no emotional attachment to them.

On the other hand I have my M and SL Leicas. If I do my part I achieve the same (or even better) images, but actually have fun doing it.  I love the simplicity of the M and that the SL and SL-2 still feel like cameras, rather than a computer with a lens mount.  Just picking one of them up makes me want to go out and capture photographs.

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[LBJ2]

14 hours ago, gotium said:

I was tempted by this also but getting to hold one again recently reminded me that it's JUST TOO BIG

 

13 hours ago, lencap said:

I think part of my problem is of my own making.  I've owned many camera brands over the years, finding Leica and Hasselblad to be my favorites.  Both camera brands were added relatively late in my photography journey, since spending the money to acquire either Leica or Hasselblad wasn't feasible with a growing family.  When I acquired each brand I admit that I felt that I had reached camera nirvana.  That added to the enjoyment, even if it was thinly disguised GAS.

The truth is that wasn't true, not because the camera brands were, as some say, "overpriced status symbols", but rather that my photography skills were revealed to be lacking.  Shooting film decades ago, and some more recently, the "sensor" of film is pretty different from 60 megapixel sensors.  Lens optics, at least as measured by modern techniques, have come a long way and reveal levels of detail not available decades ago.  Images were rarely perfect.  The medium was the limiting factor.  Today any shortfall in my images is likely do to "operator error" - that's me, not the gear.  And it doesn't get better with age.

The ability to correct digital images in Lightroom and the rest of the tools makes it relatively simple to produce an acceptable image, but the magic of creation is somewhat lost, at least for me, as I've written in other posts.  So what was left, oddly, seems to be nostalgia for "the good old days" of my earlier photography years where the image mattered more than the gear did, and film images were produced magically by the local camera store.  I'm likely not alone as Leica seems to acknowledge with the reintroduction of the classic M6 film camera.  

Digital imposes that I be the photographer and the developer - and I'm not good at it and don't have the time or patience to learn how to do it.  (Warning:  I'm a senior citizen, we get cranky easily).

My SL 601 with 24-90 lens weighed nearly 5 pounds.  That wasn't the biggest issue, although it was an issue, it was that on the supplied Leica strap carrying it on the shoulder the lens/camera balance was terrible, and it became uncomfortable pretty quickly.  So, I left it home and took the Q.  And that was fine until I ran into the limits of a 28mm focal length for portrait and other images.  The iPhone solved most of these issues, and it really bothered me that it did.  

What's even more difficult for me to accept is the performance of the iPhone 14 Pro that I recently bought.  Yes, it's a phone camera, but the images that it produces surprise me.  Apple went a different way - instead of the traditional way of creating images, they've moved to computational imaging, allowing software/programming to optimize an image in camera.  You can argue with the results or the method of generating the image, but frankly I continue to be surprised by the quality of the iPhone's results.

Add to that the simple fact that a 48MP camera is always in my pocket, can shoot stills and pretty sophisticated movies while sending either to any kind of device or platform instantly without processing.  My $999 iPhone is with me all the time, and costs about the equivalent of the sales tax of a Leica SL2 with the 24-90 lens, and it can produce better images than I can with gear that is state of the art.

That's why I was tempted to buy the SL2-S.  It's not that I need the camera, or that the SL2-S image quality is unsurpassed.  It's that I have a hard time accepting that computational photography is supplanting traditional photography.  My hobby is morphing into something I don't recognize and don't want.  I didn't want to be part of the new world of photography were a few mouse clicks replaces years of developing a skill.  

I'm having a hard time accepting that a simple camera phone can deliver impressive images effortlessly.  So my reaction was to go back to what I last enjoyed - a high quality product from a company with a long and distinguished history.  I accepted that despite whatever shortcomings or compromises I had to make, or what the limitations of a particular product may have, because the enjoyment was worth it.  

Now I'm not so sure, and that's the problem.

Unfortunately IMO, Leica launched their SL system with the SL 601 with 24-90 lens and as you wrote weighing nearly 5 pounds. I believe that was a marketing mistake that many will forever consider the SL system "big and bulky" and crinkle their nose like something smells bad at the mention. There is a small group that seem to jump at the chance to describe the SL in this manner on every SL question thread ( we all know who they are) even though the SL2 /SL2-S with Leica SL Primes is very much a normal sized mirrorless kit with high end mirrorless lenses. 

Grab a Sony A1 + high end GM lens and that could be considered a nose crinkling "big and bulky" kit by some. Same with Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras and their high end lenses. Never mind attaching respective native high end 70-200 zoom lenses with any mirrorless camera. ( Although the new ver II Sony GM 70-200 F2.8 is surprisingly light weight and Sony seems to be keeping weight down on their newer fast GM lenses too with little penalty)

I am more than fine to long distance travel and trek the city centers with the SL2 + SL 35 and SL 50. Maybe years from now I might not feel the same-- I do understand that everyone has different levels of fitness for different reasons. Or some just prefer the smallest, lightest camera they can find. I'm fine with that too. E.g., I wouldn't hike up the mountain with a Sony, Nikon, Canon, Leica high end mirrorless kit intentionally or if I had a choice. Or sometimes I prefer the tiny sensor of my iPhone if I just want some grab shots without worrying about minding an expensive camera kit.

The SL system is a very high quality tool that IMO also happens to be a beautiful design to have and to hold. Attach a Leica SL APO prime and we might just be shooting with one of the best mirrorless kits on the market, IQ wise. It is larger and heavier than a rangefinder--as are most FF mirrorless cameras. But like almost all mirrorless mounts cameras, the SL can be downsized very quickly simply by lens choice e.g., SL2 + the tiniest Leica M lens you can find or simply select one of the many very small L-Mount lenses. There is a much larger inventory of Lmount lenses then I think most realize. 

https://lesdeuxpiedsdehors.com/en/lenses-for-l-mount/