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[trickness]

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The SL2 with M glass is bigger than an M, that is, until you put the handgrip and the EVF on the M, and then they’re a lot closer.  Some people insist on talking about how big the SL is, to the point where I think they should just sell all their Leica stuff and just use an iPhone 🤣

The SL3 is likely to have a BSI sensor, be 60 megapixels or more, have greatly improved autofocus and perhaps weigh less. And the body alone is probably going to be $6500 bucks or more.

The SL2 – S can be purchased used for $3500 (and perhaps a lot less wants the SL3 comes out and everybody starts dumping their SL2 platform bodies). But it will remain a hugely competent camera, with a tremendous array of features. I have an SL2 that I use in the street several times a week with both M & SL glass, and I would never in a million years trade it for an M body. The EVF in the SL cameras is gorgeous and with IBIS you can get crazy sharp, very low shutter speed shots with even Noctilux glass. 
 

It’s really down to how you want to work. Why not get a used copy and see if it works for you? You could shift it and probably not lose too much money if it’s not your thing.

 

 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

There is a small group that seem to jump at the chance to describe the SL in this manner on every SL question thread ( we all know who they are) [...]

Count me in . Reminds me of bulky Leicaflex, R8 and R9 bodies in the film days. Leicaflexes had an excuse compared to even bigger competitors like the otherwise superb Contarex.  I much preferred compact R4 to R7 cameras then personally. I have kept my R4s to recall me those good old days when Leica Ms and Rs where not that different size wise in spite of bigger R lenses. Nowadays, Sony has taken the place of Leica as high end compact camera maker, followed lately by Nikon and Canon mirrorless cameras. The SL3 will do better than the SL2 from this standpoint hopefully.

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[gotium]

14 hours ago, lencap said:

I think part of my problem is of my own making.  I've owned many camera brands over the years, finding Leica and Hasselblad to be my favorites.  Both camera brands were added relatively late in my photography journey, since spending the money to acquire either Leica or Hasselblad wasn't feasible with a growing family.  When I acquired each brand I admit that I felt that I had reached camera nirvana.  That added to the enjoyment, even if it was thinly disguised GAS.

The truth is that wasn't true, not because the camera brands were, as some say, "overpriced status symbols", but rather that my photography skills were revealed to be lacking.  Shooting film decades ago, and some more recently, the "sensor" of film is pretty different from 60 megapixel sensors.  Lens optics, at least as measured by modern techniques, have come a long way and reveal levels of detail not available decades ago.  Images were rarely perfect.  The medium was the limiting factor.  Today any shortfall in my images is likely do to "operator error" - that's me, not the gear.  And it doesn't get better with age.

The ability to correct digital images in Lightroom and the rest of the tools makes it relatively simple to produce an acceptable image, but the magic of creation is somewhat lost, at least for me, as I've written in other posts.  So what was left, oddly, seems to be nostalgia for "the good old days" of my earlier photography years where the image mattered more than the gear did, and film images were produced magically by the local camera store.  I'm likely not alone as Leica seems to acknowledge with the reintroduction of the classic M6 film camera.  

Digital imposes that I be the photographer and the developer - and I'm not good at it and don't have the time or patience to learn how to do it.  (Warning:  I'm a senior citizen, we get cranky easily).

My SL 601 with 24-90 lens weighed nearly 5 pounds.  That wasn't the biggest issue, although it was an issue, it was that on the supplied Leica strap carrying it on the shoulder the lens/camera balance was terrible, and it became uncomfortable pretty quickly.  So, I left it home and took the Q.  And that was fine until I ran into the limits of a 28mm focal length for portrait and other images.  The iPhone solved most of these issues, and it really bothered me that it did.  

What's even more difficult for me to accept is the performance of the iPhone 14 Pro that I recently bought.  Yes, it's a phone camera, but the images that it produces surprise me.  Apple went a different way - instead of the traditional way of creating images, they've moved to computational imaging, allowing software/programming to optimize an image in camera.  You can argue with the results or the method of generating the image, but frankly I continue to be surprised by the quality of the iPhone's results.

Add to that the simple fact that a 48MP camera is always in my pocket, can shoot stills and pretty sophisticated movies while sending either to any kind of device or platform instantly without processing.  My $999 iPhone is with me all the time, and costs about the equivalent of the sales tax of a Leica SL2 with the 24-90 lens, and it can produce better images than I can with gear that is state of the art.

That's why I was tempted to buy the SL2-S.  It's not that I need the camera, or that the SL2-S image quality is unsurpassed.  It's that I have a hard time accepting that computational photography is supplanting traditional photography.  My hobby is morphing into something I don't recognize and don't want.  I didn't want to be part of the new world of photography were a few mouse clicks replaces years of developing a skill.  

I'm having a hard time accepting that a simple camera phone can deliver impressive images effortlessly.  So my reaction was to go back to what I last enjoyed - a high quality product from a company with a long and distinguished history.  I accepted that despite whatever shortcomings or compromises I had to make, or what the limitations of a particular product may have, because the enjoyment was worth it.  

Now I'm not so sure, and that's the problem.

Maybe a little too off-topic, but have you tried the little Ricoh griii and griiix? They are the size of a phone but behave like really serious cameras. I personally don’t like using my phone at all but I do find the Ricohs inspiring and very competent. 

[gotium]

17 minutes ago, trickness said:

The SL2 with M glass is bigger than an M, that is, until you put the handgrip and the EVF on the M, and then they’re a lot closer.  Some people insist on talking about how big the SL is, to the point where I think they should just sell all their Leica stuff and just use an iPhone 🤣

The SL3 is likely to have a BSI sensor, be 60 megapixels or more, have greatly improved autofocus and perhaps weigh less. And the body alone is probably going to be $6500 bucks or more.

The SL2 – S can be purchased used for $3500 (and perhaps a lot less wants the SL3 comes out and everybody starts dumping their SL2 platform bodies). But it will remain a hugely competent camera, with a tremendous array of features. I have an SL2 that I use in the street several times a week with both M & SL glass, and I would never in a million years trade it for an M body. The EVF in the SL cameras is gorgeous and with IBIS you can get crazy sharp, very low shutter speed shots with even Noctilux glass. 
 

It’s really down to how you want to work. Why not get a used copy and see if it works for you? You could shift it and probably not lose too much money if it’s not your thing.

 

 

This gets at my issues with the M system - once you put a high-res sensor in it I find it hard to nail focus off-axis and I get lots of motion blur unless using really high shutter speeds. But for me the SL is just too big, regardless. I’d be happier with APSC. 

[LocalHero1953]

41 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

There is a small group that seem to jump at the chance to describe the SL in this manner on every SL question thread ( we all know who they are) even though the SL2 /SL2-S with Leica SL Primes is very much a normal sized mirrorless kit with high end mirrorless lenses. 

Yes, I own up - every time someone asks for an opinion on the SL size, I can't stop myself from replying with my opinion, based on experience*. Unacceptable behaviour, but how do I stop myself?

🤐

 

* of ownership of various M, CL, TL2, Q2, SL, SL2-S.....

Edited November 30, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[trickness]

37 minutes ago, gotium said:

This gets at my issues with the M system - once you put a high-res sensor in it I find it hard to nail focus off-axis and I get lots of motion blur unless using really high shutter speeds. But for me the SL is just too big, regardless. I’d be happier with APSC. 

Again, it’s about the right tool for the job. You don’t HAVE to put a giant zoom on the SL. I put the tiny 28 Summaron on mine and it’s a beast for street photography. And with respect, nailing focus and avoiding motion blur with an M is down to the technique of the photographer, it’s not an inherent failing of the platform. We have magical tools that the giants of photography could only dream of and yet they took plenty of pin sharp photographs on rangefinders with ISO 25 film.

again, if one wants a lightweight camera that removes technique from the equation of taking a decent photograph, a Leica is certainly not required.

Edited November 30, 2022 by trickness

[LBJ2]

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13 minutes ago, lct said:

Count me in . Reminds me of bulky Leicaflex, R8 and R9 bodies in the film days. Leicaflexes had an excuse compared to even bigger competitors like the otherwise superb Contarex.  I much preferred compact R4 to R7 cameras then personally. I have kept my R4s to recall me those good old days when Leica Ms and Rs where not that different size wise in spite of bigger R lenses. Nowadays, Sony has taken the place of Leica as high end compact camera maker, followed lately by Nikon and Canon mirrorless cameras. The SL3 will do better than the SL2 from this standpoint hopefully.

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From what I read, Stefan Daniel stated recently, we shouldn't expect the SL3 form-factor to be much smaller. Personally I think that's a smart decision based upon the balance/size of the SL APO Primes--very good balance IMO. 

[lct]

1 minute ago, LBJ2 said:

From what I read, Stefan Daniel stated recently, we shouldn't expect the SL3 form-factor to be much smaller. Personally I think that's a smart decision based upon the balance/size of the SL APO Primes--very good balance IMO. 

We shall see. I hope  history will not ramble as i ordered my first Sony the very day i saw the size of the SL601...

[LBJ2]

22 minutes ago, lct said:

We shall see. I hope  history will not ramble as i ordered my first Sony the very day i saw the size of the SL601...

Yes. We "shall see" is a good point. I should have written that too. Marketing does have a way of steering product design/features to what they feel will meet/exceed sales goals. OTOH my guess is the majority of the SL3 form factor has long since been finalized for a few years now when Stefan Daniel made that comment recently.

For me, I specifically use small, medium and large size kits and then mix and match based upon the need and or desire. Albeit the large DSLR form-factor was before my time as I started with mirrorless so my sense of large is mirrorless large ( excluding the very popular Nikon Z9/Canon R3)

IMO, unless someone really needs or wants a very small FF kit, I wouldn't overlook the Leica SL system, particularly if you are interested in trying out some of the finest optics ever made.

Edited November 30, 2022 by LBJ2

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

The SL2 with M glass is bigger than an M, that is, until you put the handgrip and the EVF on the M, and then they’re a lot closer.  Some people insist on talking about how big the SL is, to the point where I think they should just sell all their Leica stuff and just use an iPhone 🤣

The SL3 is likely to have a BSI sensor, be 60 megapixels or more, have greatly improved autofocus and perhaps weigh less. And the body alone is probably going to be $6500 bucks or more.

The SL2 – S can be purchased used for $3500 (and perhaps a lot less wants the SL3 comes out and everybody starts dumping their SL2 platform bodies). But it will remain a hugely competent camera, with a tremendous array of features. I have an SL2 that I use in the street several times a week with both M & SL glass, and I would never in a million years trade it for an M body. The EVF in the SL cameras is gorgeous and with IBIS you can get crazy sharp, very low shutter speed shots with even Noctilux glass. 
 

It’s really down to how you want to work. Why not get a used copy and see if it works for you? You could shift it and probably not lose too much money if it’s not your thing.

 

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[trickness]

1 minute ago, LBJ2 said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now try adding the EVF to the top of the M body….

and forgetting size for a moment, the camera on the right does not have in-body image stabilization, + once you add that optional (not-as-good as the SL) EVF to the M it’s about 3k more $$ than the SL2. Plus the body is not weather sealed and can’t do video. Plus the SL2 has a built-in adjustable diopter for eyeglass users. 
 

but hey, if you want to spend three grand for less technology ability and a bit less weight, that’s certainly your prerogative 🤩

[robb]

It’s all perspective I guess.  Anyone that has shot professionally on the commercial or news side using two pro bodies like the canon 1d or Nikon d5 or even their prosumer bodies like the 850 or 5d…

would say the Sl2 form factor is a great step forward.  And easier to use.  

it’s really an easy choice to me over the M once you use both with the smaller M lenses… but once you use the SL Apo lenses it’s hard to go back.

Robb

[trickness]

Just now, robb said:

It’s all perspective I guess.  Anyone that has shot professionally on the commercial or news side using two pro bodies like the canon 1d or Nikon d5 or even their prosumer bodies like the 850 or 5d…

would say the Sl2 form factor is a great step forward.  And easier to use.  

it’s really an easy choice to me over the M once you use both with the smaller M lenses… but once you use the SL Apo lenses it’s hard to go back.

Robb

I love the SL Primes, but gotta say my fave lens on the SL2 is the 75 Nocti M - just, wow. So heavy, can't imagine using it on an M body! With the EVF magnification I can focus on an eyelash. The 75 APO SL is my "run and gun" portrait lens by comparison 🤣 

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, trickness said:

Now try adding the EVF to the top of the M body….

and forgetting size for a moment, the camera on the right does not have in-body image stabilization, + once you add that optional (not-as-good as the SL) EVF to the M it’s about 3k more $$ than the SL2. Plus the body is not weather sealed and can’t do video. Plus the SL2 has a built-in adjustable diopter for eyeglass users. 
 

but hey, if you want to spend three grand for less technology ability and a bit less weight, that’s certainly your prerogative 🤩

I spent on both systems 😉. No regrets whatsoever. I really enjoy both for exactly what they are. The SL2 was however the surprise for me. I bought this camera mainly to be able to use the SL 35 APO. I had the same impression as some those on these forums describing "big and bulky" like some sort of mantra until I actually used the camera and have since become enamored. The SL2 IMO is Not big and bulky, but it is larger and heavier than a rangefinder as are most FF mirrorless cameras. There is an awful lot to like about the SL2 in 2022 to include the stunning IQ with these spectacular SL APO primes or like you wrote, using with the digital Noctilux M lenses. While I prefer the 50 f0,95 on the M11 with the rangefinder patch, I am positive many appreciate SL2 EVF and focus aid for f0,95. I also shoot the SL2 along side the Sony A1 with several top tier Sony GM lenses so happy to defend SL2 size and weight when comparing to one of the smallest major brand FF mirrorless cameras. 

I really admire the M11 for maintaining a true rangefinder HW, process and experience while at the same time delicately loading up the camera with all the latest greatest tech to include one of the best sensors ever in a rangefinder and much of the tech I appreciate from the SL2. No longer can anyone justify the Leica rangefinder sensor lags the competition ( at least for now). I really liked the M10 my first rangefinder, and then the M10-R was also a favorite but to me the M11 is almost the perfect rangefinder in 2022. 

SL2 kit + M11 Kit is to me...quintessential. Using my made for digital Leica M lenses on the SL2 with almost no penalty is quintessential +. Now If I could just use the SL APO primes on the M11 sensor...maybe in 2023 with the SL3 

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, trickness said:

Now try adding the EVF to the top of the M body….

and forgetting size for a moment, the camera on the right does not have in-body image stabilization, + once you add that optional (not-as-good as the SL) EVF to the M it’s about 3k more $$ than the SL2. Plus the body is not weather sealed and can’t do video. Plus the SL2 has a built-in adjustable diopter for eyeglass users. 
 

but hey, if you want to spend three grand for less technology ability and a bit less weight, that’s certainly your prerogative 🤩

I bought the new EVF too. A very nice upgrade from the Visoflex 020 IMO, BUT...I am very comfortable with the rangefinder patch even at 0,95 with a caveat...LOL I wear specs so I need my specs to cleary see perfect patch alignment at 0,95. If my vision degrades at some point, then I'll dial in with the Visoflex 2. Til now I use the Visolfex 2 mainly for rangefinder macro with the Leica Elpro E52 adapter. I prefer to use M11 LV to frame the Leica 24 Lux, but the new Visoflex 2 would be ideal for the 24 lux too.

[Tailwagger]

All depends on how much you're prepared to lug around, but in my world I'd much rather hike around for a couple hours in high heat and humidity carrying the least amount of gear possible. Occasionally I get M'd-out and I'll shoot out in the world with the SL2 for a few weeks, but while I'm reasonably fit for my age, I have actually begun thinking about returning to Fuji for those situations where I have to have AF.  Consider below where one bag contains an M11 with grip and visoflex attached, WATE, 28mm and 50mm 'lux , while the other has the SL2 with the SL-35, SL-75 crons and the 16-35 Lumix, weighs nearly triple and barely fits. Can you guess which is which 🤣?

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[lct]

1 minute ago, Tailwagger said:

Can you guess which is which 🤣?

They're both your bag !

https://youtu.be/GjsHXHA0IS8?t=26

 

[Tailwagger]

33 minutes ago, lct said:

They're both your bag !

https://youtu.be/GjsHXHA0IS8?t=26

 

Sigh... the downsides of pop culture...

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, robb said:

t’s all perspective I guess.  Anyone that has shot professionally on the commercial or news side using two pro bodies like the canon 1d or Nikon d5 or even their prosumer bodies like the 850 or 5d…

Same here. The SL was/is smaller than the 5D it replaced. I think we would all love for Leica to release a Q-sized L-mount (full frame) camera, but that hasn't happened yet. Even if it does, such a camera shouldn't replace the SL-sized bodies. They can't get much smaller before hand-holding becomes a concern.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Simone_DF]

Well, let's just check some data, since it's available everywhere online. I just collated this info from b&h. Cameras have batteries included.

SL2 + 50mm Summilux: 916g + 1065g = 1981g

Canon R5 + 50mm f/1.2: 738g + 950g = 1688g

SL2 + 75mm Summicron: 916g + 750g = 1666g

Canon R5 + 85mm f/2: 738g + 500g = 1238g

 

If we go the Sony route, the differences are even more dramatic

Sony A7V + Sony 50mm f/1.2 GM: 659g + 778g = 1437

Sony A7V + Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM: 659g + 820g = 1479

and since it's not fair to compare a f/1.4 lens vs f/2, the Sony f/1.8 is just 371g, but definitely without the same optical / build quality of a Summicron

 

So if we take the Sony with the 50mm GM vs the Summilux, the weight difference is of 544g, and the Sony is a 1.2 lens.

And even if we pick the Canon option, you're saving 300g and still getting a 1.2 aperture.