I can’t figure out why these images aren’t sharp

[eyeheartny]

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12 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

In general, do Leica lenses tend to be as sharp / sharper than some of the newer lenses from Sony, Sigma, etc? Those other lenses can be "clinically" sharp - but not sure if that's really what Leica goes for (this is my first Leica lens, so I don't know). As an example, the Sony 35 1.4 GM shot I took is extremely sharp in the center at 1.4 even, zoomed in to 300%. The Leica is not, even at f8, but when viewed at 100%-200% would still be considered "in focus".

Different question. Are you satisfied with the level of sharpness you're getting from your 35 Lux? If so, what was the purpose of this post? If not, then why are you trying to back away from the concerns about sharpness? You're changing the discussion here and it's unclear what your objective is. Do you want to identify whether your lens is performing appropriately? If so, you need to do more testing with a target that can help you identify front or back focus. If you want a pat on the back that everything is fine, just say so. It's unclear what you want from this thread to be candid. 

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[TheEyesHaveIt]

14 minutes ago, eyeheartny said:

Different question. Are you satisfied with the level of sharpness you're getting from your 35 Lux? If so, what was the purpose of this post? If not, then why are you trying to back away from the concerns about sharpness? You're changing the discussion here and it's unclear what your objective is. Do you want to identify whether your lens is performing appropriately? If so, you need to do more testing with a target that can help you identify front or back focus. If you want a pat on the back that everything is fine, just say so. It's unclear what you want from this thread to be candid. 

I want to identify if the lens I purchased used is performing appropriately to the expected performance of a Summilux 35.

[lct]

1 minute ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I want to identify if the lens I purchased used is performing appropriately to the expected performance of a Summilux 35.

You may wish to drop your DNG files in a dropbox so that we can check them the same way as we do with ours.

[eyeheartny]

11 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I want to identify if the lens I purchased used is performing appropriately to the expected performance of a Summilux 35.

Have you considered doing a test not using a children’s book but a focus test chart like I recommended, with a 45 degree angle (the one I suggest does that for you), with a ruler on the target to identify front or back focus, with a tripod in good reliable lighting? If you want to get clear answers you are going to have to do more in depth testing with supplied DNGs and not tiny low quality JPEGs. The small images are useful if you’re showing a detail shot of a ruler on a focus test target but the pics you’ve posted don’t help us examine things correctly for you. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by eyeheartny

[KenTanaka]

I cannot speak to Jeff's original query concerning his image sharpness.  I can claim with very high confidence that getting consistently "tac sharp" handheld images from a 50-100+ mp digital camera requires a tripod or a relatively high shutter speeds (min 3xF) if the camera / lens offers no image stabilization.  It's just a fact.  I have been shooting primarily in this resolution range for quite a few years with Sony, Fujifilm, Phase One, Hasselblad, and now Leica.  Sony's and Fuji's IBIS make handheld shooting a real joy when sharpness is required.  The unstabilized Phase, Hassy, and Leica M require great care and, usually, lockdown.  

Honestly, I shoot my M11 at 30mp most of the time.  It's perfectly adequate for most of my needs, masks edge softness to the degree that I can at least plausibly mitigate it in post if necessary.  Shooting full-res 60mp with the M11 handheld rarely produces better results, especially given the camera's lack of AF.  If Leica wants to continue this line of high-res sensors in their ancient body design they'll have to offer IBIS.  It's simply folly to expect sharp images from such a camera design at full-res.

[eyeheartny]

11 minutes ago, KenTanaka said:

I cannot speak to Jeff's original query concerning his image sharpness.  I can claim with very high confidence that getting consistently "tac sharp" handheld images from a 50-100+ mp digital camera requires a tripod or a relatively high shutter speeds (min 3xF) if the camera / lens offers no image stabilization.  It's just a fact.  I have been shooting primarily in this resolution range for quite a few years with Sony, Fujifilm, Phase One, Hasselblad, and now Leica.  Sony's and Fuji's IBIS make handheld shooting a real joy when sharpness is required.  The unstabilized Phase, Hassy, and Leica M require great care and, usually, lockdown.  

Honestly, I shoot my M11 at 30mp most of the time.  It's perfectly adequate for most of my needs, masks edge softness to the degree that I can at least plausibly mitigate it in post if necessary.  Shooting full-res 60mp with the M11 handheld rarely produces better results, especially given the camera's lack of AF.  If Leica wants to continue this line of high-res sensors in their ancient body design they'll have to offer IBIS.  It's simply folly to expect sharp images from such a camera design at full-res.

We’re not talking about handheld though, at least on my end. I’ve asked Jeff several times to conduct tripod tests with a high quality focus target to help identify back or front focus. Until we see those results this thread is a lot of speculation because the examples Jeff has given don’t give enough information to identify issues. Static tripod tests with a 45 degree ruler are the definitive way to know what is going on with this lens. 
 

Your points about handheld shooting are totally reasonable, though not relevant to this issue Jeff is investigating. Also, 1/4f works well to resolve motion blur. I’d also suggest that your point about lower resolution isn’t really necessary as you can always just not zoom as far in to see the effect of motion blur but still enjoy the 60mp for cropping and dynamic range purposes. 

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I can't figure out why this thread is still running at full throttle.

The TO posted pictures the size of postage stamps and reported EXIF data that would yield pictures that you would know they're not sharp without even glancing at them. He then carefully avoided showing up in this thread again, leaving all questions and suggestions unanswered.

[Cattoo]

1 hour ago, pop said:

The TO posted pictures the size of postage stamps and reported EXIF data that would yield pictures that you would know they're not sharp without even glancing at them.

This is true.  1/25 sec exposure with a 35mm lens on a 60mp camera?  😕

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, KenTanaka said:

I cannot speak to Jeff's original query concerning his image sharpness.  I can claim with very high confidence that getting consistently "tac sharp" handheld images from a 50-100+ mp digital camera requires a tripod or a relatively high shutter speeds (min 3xF) if the camera / lens offers no image stabilization.  It's just a fact.  I have been shooting primarily in this resolution range for quite a few years with Sony, Fujifilm, Phase One, Hasselblad, and now Leica.  Sony's and Fuji's IBIS make handheld shooting a real joy when sharpness is required.  The unstabilized Phase, Hassy, and Leica M require great care and, usually, lockdown.  

Honestly, I shoot my M11 at 30mp most of the time.  It's perfectly adequate for most of my needs, masks edge softness to the degree that I can at least plausibly mitigate it in post if necessary.  Shooting full-res 60mp with the M11 handheld rarely produces better results, especially given the camera's lack of AF.  If Leica wants to continue this line of high-res sensors in their ancient body design they'll have to offer IBIS.  It's simply folly to expect sharp images from such a camera design at full-res.

Stephen Shore is shooting handheld with his 50MP X1D. The results are good enough for an exhibition. 
Most M11 owners seem to be shooting handheld with 60MP and are getting sharp results with a proper technique.

[pippy]

4 hours ago, pop said:

I can't figure out why this thread is still running at full throttle...

Me neither. It's obviously a prankster having a laugh.

P.

[Cattoo]

4 minutes ago, pippy said:

Me neither. It's obviously a prankster having a laugh.

P.

It's actually pretty clever.  Give us a couple problems and see how long it takes the Leica user braintrust to identify the obvious causes, the first being slow shutter speed, the second shooting at f/16.

[Tailwagger]

9 minutes ago, Cattoo said:

It's actually pretty clever.  Give us a couple problems and see how long it takes the Leica user braintrust to identify the obvious causes, the first being slow shutter speed, the second shooting at f/16.

You left out poor shooting technique 🤣

[geotrupede]

Just my own experience, the day I got the M11 I mounted a lens with an issue at infinity, was quite shocked, lack of sharpness, blurry, etc. But was not the camera, it was the lens! and I did not know it...    Since then I have had such lens fixed and used the camera more extensively for street and it is SUPER. In fact I do not even use it at the full potential, because I like the smaller 18MP files this is what I usually have set. Also, now that I have improved the colour -> BW conversion it is getting closer to the MM1, not the same but closer.

There are few things to consider, focusing is one of these 😉 and of course the shutter speed vs length of the lens used, in doubt I usually try to stay around 1/1000th. For the aperture it is good something like 5.6/8, closer for maximising depth of field but to the expense of certain degree of softness. 5.6/8 is the sweet spot.  When I use flash there is no issue and with 5.6 you get stuff which is good for adverts. 

A shot from yesterday night / perhaps the JPG reduces quality but it is super sharp here.

G>

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[fenykepesz]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb geotrupede:

Just my own experience, the day I got the M11 I mounted a lens with an issue at infinity, was quite shocked, lack of sharpness, blurry, etc. But was not the camera, it was the lens! and I did not know it...    Since then I have had such lens fixed and used the camera more extensively for street and it is SUPER. In fact I do not even use it at the full potential, because I like the smaller 18MP files this is what I usually have set. Also, now that I have improved the colour -> BW conversion it is getting closer to the MM1, not the same but closer.

you mentioned "now that I have improved the colour -> BW conversion" - and i am more than curious about this topic !  i left quite a few comments about this on this forum, without much feedback unfortunately.  i my self like to use a pixel-by-pixel method that takes into account local and regional neighbourhoods, kind of a non-manual, 'hypothesis-free', quasi automated image processing approach.  below a recent converted picture (8bit grayscale JPG at 75% quality only, just to be under 2.44MB limit, processed from 24MB DNG RAW file with GEGL/c2g at 4096/32/16, without any further contrast adjustments, just some cropping).  

anyway, i am curious to hear about your approach(es) !  i like your picture, btw, quite graphical, in the real sense of the word.

regarding sharpness, and so to be in line with the original topic, i just fixed my fixed my M10D a few days ago (not the summiluxes), and it's indeed a day & night revelation to me !  so, i easily follow your pain and experiences you wrote about !

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[geotrupede]

After tweaks and much testing these are the two profiles for the M11 which I use. One is for daytime and the other for night time with flash.  If you use capture one should be simple to install and use. Additionally I set the exposure and in the case of the night time add another layer with contrast to the highest.

hope it works for you!

G.

 

M11 BW day-sunny.costyle M11 BW.costyle

[geotrupede]

and some examples of the BW / transitioning from MM1 to M11. the new stuff is all colour conversions. getting there 😉

https://www.papa-antonutto.com/hurrahitsthursday

 

[Chimichurri]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:25 AM, Jeff Wagner said:

I have not yet tried with a lower f-stop in case it is the higher ones that are perhaps the reason, but I expected both of these to be fully in focus and neither one is. The 1. was handheld and the 2 was on a tripod with the App remote.  Exif data below

Any feedback is welcome. Thank you, Jeff

 

LEICA M11

35mm (Summilux-M 1:1.4/35 ASPH.) 9528 x 6328 • 76.3 MB 1/25 sec f/9.5

ISO 800

 

LEICA M11

35mm (Summilux-M 1:1.4/35 ASPH.) 7685 x 5105 (9528 × 6328) • 76.9 MB

1/250 sec f/16

ISO 800.DNG

 

 

 

 

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This is what I see 

If this is from Flickr just post the links. 

So far my answer is. These images aren’t sharp because they’re 10Kb thumbnails. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Chimichurri

[fenykepesz]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb geotrupede:

and some examples of the BW / transitioning from MM1 to M11. the new stuff is all colour conversions. getting there 😉

https://www.papa-antonutto.com/hurrahitsthursday

 

thank you, geotrupede, for your Capture One profile files and for your photos link.  quite impressive indeed, and i learned something new (about colour conversion and MM vs Mx).  now, i am a bit lost as many of these shiny software don't like linux, and as a hardcore unix user for decades i am aware that many doors are closed for my workflow - though i may not miss them so much as being a traditionalist in the electronic darkroom i depend only on a few simple tools, perhaps with the exception of this somewhat unusual gegl/c2g conversion engine which is key for generating my pictures.

anyway, i am sidetracking from the original topic about focusing & sharpness, sorry about that...

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[rossawilson1]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:06 PM, Artin said:

Or the 2nd at F16. Well into the lens diffraction range ?  

Definitely not "well into the diffraction range". F8 is optimum for most lenses F16 totally fine too, F22 and beyond is usually where it starts. 

There are so many issues with judging sharpness, over the years I've noticed a lot of Leica M users have problems, in 15 uncalibrated years of my M6 and a lot of lenses I've never seen a problem. I suspect a lot of users are just bad at focusing or can't hand hold well. The M11 sensor would exacerbate this which is what we're likely seeing. 

[lct]

5 hours ago, rossawilson1 said:

Definitely not "well into the diffraction range". F8 is optimum for most lenses F16 totally fine too, F22 and beyond is usually where it starts. 

Not my experience i must say. On most of my lenses diffraction begins at f/16.