eyeheartny Posted October 31, 2022 Share #21 Posted October 31, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 20 hours ago, Jeff Wagner said: I have not yet tried with a lower f-stop in case it is the higher ones that are perhaps the reason, but I expected both of these to be fully in focus and neither one is. The 1. was handheld and the 2 was on a tripod with the App remote. Exif data below Any feedback is welcome. Thank you, Jeff You need to do a static tripod test indoors with a focus target in consistent light. Get a target like this. Use a desk lamp and set up a tripod with your M11 mounted on it. Set up the target so that the small part of the target (the shape on the right near the ruler) is in the middle of the focus patch. Pick a sensible distance like 25-30x focal length (in MM). Perform tests using Live View with focus magnification. Then use the rangefinder. See if you get sharp results wide open and as you stop down. Using the focus target will show you whether it is front or back focusing or some other issue. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2022 Posted October 31, 2022 Hi eyeheartny, Take a look here I can’t figure out why these images aren’t sharp. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted October 31, 2022 Share #22 Posted October 31, 2022 47 minutes ago, M11 for me said: I can not add to it. I notice though that you mention 100% view. But that is the issue as it should be both pictures the same size im cm (or whatever measure). But maybe someone else jumps in here who knows exactly how to explain the phenomenon or the physics of that. By no means I want to start an unqualified pingpong with you as that will not help anybody understand things better. I understand that this is your experience and my point is not to contradict you when that is what you see in your pictures. And Jeff got still no answer to his issue with his blurred pictures. Easy to check by yourself. If 1/f works fine for you on 100% crops, on a regular basis, you will know that i got it wrong. Don't ask me if i hold my breath though . 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted October 31, 2022 Share #23 Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, eyeheartny said: You need to do a static tripod test indoors with a focus target in consistent light. Get a target like this. Use a desk lamp and set up a tripod with your M11 mounted on it. Set up the target so that the small part of the target (the shape on the right near the ruler) is in the middle of the focus patch. Pick a sensible distance like 25-30x focal length (in MM). Perform tests using Live View with focus magnification. Then use the rangefinder. See if you get sharp results wide open and as you stop down. Using the focus target will show you whether it is front or back focusing or some other issue. Or you can save your $69.00 USD and print out an ISO 12233 focus test chart - there are several billion of them online, which you can print out (use "The Google" to search for ISO 12233 focus test chart). There are also a lot of articles online about focus testing, such as https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/02/setting-up-an-optical-testing-station/ and https://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html here is a printable ISO 12233 chart (see example below): https://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/ISO_12233-reschart.pdf Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited October 31, 2022 by Herr Barnack Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/343330-i-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out-why-these-images-aren%E2%80%99t-sharp/?do=findComment&comment=4550984'>More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted October 31, 2022 Share #24 Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) vor 34 Minuten schrieb lct: Easy to check by yourself. If 1/f works fine for you on 100% crops, on a regular basis, you will know that i got it wrong. Don't ask me if i hold my breath though . That is correct but by no means this means that your picture would be sharper with an M10. When you look at an image at 100% with the M11 then you would have to magnify much more with the M10 in order to get the same size in cm or inches!! And then your M10 picture suddenly is not sharp either. But 01af would be well able to explain in detail. But lets stay friends a stop here Edited October 31, 2022 by M11 for me Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted October 31, 2022 Share #25 Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said: Or you can save your $69.00 USD and print out an ISO 12233 focus test chart - there are several billion of them online, which you can print out (use "The Google" to search for ISO 12233 focus test chart). Sure, but then you have to calibrate your chart to a perfect 45 degree angle, or get your camera there. Having the ruler at 45 degrees to the focal plane is the best way to see the degree of focus error in inches/centimeters. And what if your printer is not precise enough to get clean lines, so that at 100% you can't tell clearly if it's focused accurately, particularly with a lens that may be misbehaving? I mucked about with printed charts and angling the camera/paper chart until I realized it would just be faster and easier and more reliable to get a plastic test target with a ruler so I can assess the direction of focus error. With a printed chart like you're proposing how do you know if the lens is front or back focusing? By how much? Sure you can do various tests, but again-- the Spyder LensCal makes it easy, repeatable, and accurate. Not criticizing what you're saying, but you make it sound like it's a no-brainer to use a paper chart and the existence of the LensCal and others makes clear that there's a need for these test targets with rulers, perfect angle set, etc. Edited October 31, 2022 by eyeheartny Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted October 31, 2022 Share #26 Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) Hm. A much more involved process than I originally thought. Thanks for your explanation, @eyeheartny. Edited October 31, 2022 by Herr Barnack Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 31, 2022 Share #27 Posted October 31, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 2 hours ago, M11 for me said: That is correct but by no means this means that your picture would be sharper with an M10. When you look at an image at 100% with the M11 then you would have to magnify much more with the M10 in order to get the same size in cm or inches!! And then your M10 picture suddenly is not sharp either. [...] Did this with the M240 already. At 1/f results were sharper than with the M11. Now if your own results are good enough at 1/f or below, you have no reason to follow me obviously . My own advice will remain the same however. For handheld shootings, better choose 1/2f at least with the M11. YMMV. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattoo Posted November 1, 2022 Share #28 Posted November 1, 2022 Could diffraction be the cause? (Google it) You'll get that with high megapixel cameras at small apertures. Try shooting at f/8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 1, 2022 Share #29 Posted November 1, 2022 18 minutes ago, Cattoo said: Could diffraction be the cause? (Google it) You'll get that with high megapixel cameras at small apertures. Try shooting at f/8. Post #5. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEyesHaveIt Posted November 1, 2022 Share #30 Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) I was also wondering about this with my Summilux 35 (which I got used, so I'm even more paranoid). Compared to my Sony 35 1.4 GM on the A7RIV, this was the closest I could get to the Sony's sharpness with the Leica M11. This is shot at the same shutter speed, same ISO, at 1.4 on both lenses on a tripod with a 2sec timer delay. Live view focusing doesn't zoom in enough to really nail the focus at 1.4. I'm guessing a Visoflex is needed for that - I'll try one out tomorrow at the store. My viewfinder looked "in focus" for this as well (as best as I could tell) - hopefully that means it is working fine too. The sharpness didn't seem to improve as I stopped down - I'm guessing that's because the focal plane was still off, but I would've thought the depth of field increased. As a side note, the difference between Sony and Leica colors is pretty cool to see. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited November 1, 2022 by TheEyesHaveIt Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/343330-i-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out-why-these-images-aren%E2%80%99t-sharp/?do=findComment&comment=4551361'>More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted November 1, 2022 Share #31 Posted November 1, 2022 40 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said: I was also wondering about this with my Summilux 35 (which I got used, so I'm even more paranoid). Compared to my Sony 35 1.4 GM on the A7RIV, this was the closest I could get to the Sony's sharpness with the Leica M11. This is shot at the same shutter speed, same ISO, at 1.4 on both lenses on a tripod with a 2sec timer delay. Live view focusing doesn't zoom in enough to really nail the focus at 1.4. I'm guessing a Visoflex is needed for that - I'll try one out tomorrow at the store. My viewfinder looked "in focus" for this as well (as best as I could tell) - hopefully that means it is working fine too. The sharpness didn't seem to improve as I stopped down - I'm guessing that's because the focal plane was still off, but I would've thought the depth of field increased. As a side note, the difference between Sony and Leica colors is pretty cool to see. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! You didn’t see increased sharpness as you went to f4 or 5.6? That is troubling to say the least. How far away was the target? At 4 feet and f5.6 you have nearly a foot of acceptable sharpness with a 35mm lens. I’m mystified that you can’t get sharper results. Even on a 50 Summilux with focusing issues that’s currently in for service, I could get sharper images at f2. I wonder if something is off with your camera rather than the lens since the results didn’t change as you stopped down? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEyesHaveIt Posted November 1, 2022 Share #32 Posted November 1, 2022 39 minutes ago, eyeheartny said: You didn’t see increased sharpness as you went to f4 or 5.6? That is troubling to say the least. How far away was the target? At 4 feet and f5.6 you have nearly a foot of acceptable sharpness with a 35mm lens. I’m mystified that you can’t get sharper results. Even on a 50 Summilux with focusing issues that’s currently in for service, I could get sharper images at f2. I wonder if something is off with your camera rather than the lens since the results didn’t change as you stopped down? I tried again and I do see some improvement when looking at 1.4 (left) vs say f8 (right). This is still just trying to focus manually as best as I can - and this is also zoomed into 250%. At 100%, things look great. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/343330-i-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out-why-these-images-aren%E2%80%99t-sharp/?do=findComment&comment=4551381'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted November 1, 2022 Share #33 Posted November 1, 2022 The focusing issue with a very narrow DOF can occur when the camera moves slightly between the focusing and the shutter press (handheld). The issue can be compensated by moving the body closer and further while taking a sequence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmen Posted November 1, 2022 Share #34 Posted November 1, 2022 I’m also wondering how the comparison will be if you first adjust contract, brightness, and sharpening for the DNG and bring it closer to the ARW file. That may explain part of the difference as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2022 Share #35 Posted November 1, 2022 Are these jpeg files that are compared here? Just curious as i don't see this difference on raw files of my Leica and Sony cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEyesHaveIt Posted November 1, 2022 Share #36 Posted November 1, 2022 4 hours ago, lct said: Are these jpeg files that are compared here? Just curious as i don't see this difference on raw files of my Leica and Sony cameras. They’re raw files on both cameras. By difference, do you mean the colors? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartny Posted November 1, 2022 Share #37 Posted November 1, 2022 10 hours ago, SrMi said: The focusing issue with a very narrow DOF can occur when the camera moves slightly between the focusing and the shutter press (handheld). The issue can be compensated by moving the body closer and further while taking a sequence. This is why I recommended doing static tripod tests to avoid this. Not sure if the original poster here did that but it's essential when trying to identify if there's a lens or camera issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEyesHaveIt Posted November 1, 2022 Share #38 Posted November 1, 2022 In general, do Leica lenses tend to be as sharp / sharper than some of the newer lenses from Sony, Sigma, etc? Those other lenses can be "clinically" sharp - but not sure if that's really what Leica goes for (this is my first Leica lens, so I don't know). As an example, the Sony 35 1.4 GM shot I took is extremely sharp in the center at 1.4 even, zoomed in to 300%. The Leica is not, even at f8, but when viewed at 100%-200% would still be considered "in focus". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 1, 2022 Share #39 Posted November 1, 2022 47 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said: They’re raw files on both cameras. By difference, do you mean the colors? Yes there is a color profile in Leica DNG files and it tends to oversaturate the colors but not to this extent. Perhaps your DNG file has been converted with an Adobe software like ACR or LR, which could explain this somewhat cartoonesque rendition. Never mind, i'm not an Adobe fan, as you can suspect it, but it's just me . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEyesHaveIt Posted November 1, 2022 Share #40 Posted November 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, lct said: Yes there is a color profile in Leica DNG files and it tends to oversaturate the colors but not to this extent. Perhaps your DNG file has been converted with an Adobe software like ACR or LR, which could explain this somewhat cartoonesque rendition. Never mind, i'm not an Adobe fan, as you can suspect it, but it's just me . It was using the M11 Profile in Lightroom. Sony was using Adobe Color, which is a lot less saturated (same with Adobe Standard). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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