Braaamer Posted October 24, 2022 Share #1 Posted October 24, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi all, in early 2022 I purchased a nice M3 single stroke from 1963 including a Summicron 50 from 1959 and had the kit CLAed right away. All fine initially, I noticed after a while that the focus mechanism developed an issue in that the secondary image would stop moving when focusing closer. Inconsistent behaviour starting at different positions, and I was typically able to resolve it by moving the focus ring back and forth a couple of times. The issue also occurred with a Summicron 35 from 1959 with goggles. Yesterday, the issue became a lot worse - the secondary image only moved between infinity and - say 15m. Today, from infinity only a tiny fraction away from infinity. Finally it now doesn’t move at all anymore. The frame lines and focus patch do move up and left when focusing towards infinity and back down and right again when moving towards the close focus limit. With the lens removed, the lever arm doesn’t appear to be stuck, and when gently moving it in and out, again frame lines and focus patch do move as just described, but the secondary image doesn’t move relative to the primary image. I have contacted my CLA service partner today and I am waiting for their answer. But before sending it in, I thought maybe someone here has experienced this before and can give some advice as to what could be causing this issue? Thanks and best regards, Erik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 24, 2022 Posted October 24, 2022 Hi Braaamer, Take a look here M3 rangefinder - secondary image doesn’t move. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Danner Posted October 24, 2022 Share #2 Posted October 24, 2022 Gently, manipulate the focusing cam follower in the body (with the lens removed). How does it feel? Does the rangefinder patch (secondary image) move consistently as you move the follower? I'll bet it feels sticky/gritty in its movement. Very likely a CLA is past due. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share #3 Posted October 24, 2022 The cam follower feels ok, not sticky or gritty. But the key issue is that the patch / secondary image doesn’t move at all, even with the lens removed. CLA was done in April 2022 so it is very fresh. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hektor Posted October 24, 2022 Share #4 Posted October 24, 2022 Dear Braaamer, IMHO your sixty nine year old M3 has its rangefinder optics separating, something which would not have been possible to detect during ther CLA. I fear you are up for a replacement rangefinder, usually the 0.85 being the only available and not the 0.95 of the M3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share #5 Posted October 24, 2022 Ouch, that would really be a pity. But thanks for your assessment. I will wait for the repair service’s feedback. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 24, 2022 Share #6 Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) Hello Erik, Welcome to the Forum. Technical clarification. M3's have a viewfinder magnification of 0.91X The view thru the range/viewfinder is very nice. Especially with a 90mm lens. Really good with a 135mm lens without "goggles" also. 50mm is OK & has those nice curved corners showing what is inside a slide mount. Which is the same thing a person sees (Expanded) when they put on a 35mm lens with "goggles". Which gives a very usable magnification for a 35mm lens of 0.6X.. And the frame lines specific to each lens show you what is captured at the CLOSEST focusing distance for the CAMERA regardless of which lens you use. Including with the 35mm lenses with "goggles". Further distances with all shown focal lengths give you more on the film (Inside a slide mount.) than you see in the range/viewfinder window. Never less. Hopefully everything is fixable. M3's are incredibly nice cameras. Best Regards, Michael Edited October 24, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share #7 Posted October 24, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks a lot for everyone‘s input so far. Reading about M3 prism separation a bit more here in the forum and elsewhere tells me that if that were the case, I should see a viewfinder blackout. That’s not the case for me, I see both images, it’s just that the secondary image doesn’t move. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 24, 2022 Share #8 Posted October 24, 2022 Hello Erik, A secondary image not moving in a rangefinder MIGHT be a relatively simple adjustment. Perhaps. M3's are good cameras mechanically & are often relatively easy to adjust. I would ask the person who did the cleaning, lubricating & adjusting. If they are not able to do anything I would ask somebody else. It does NOT seem like a "big deal" to me. Perhaps. Those are nice lenses, by the way. Best Regards, Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Posted October 24, 2022 Share #9 Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) I have what sounds like a similar issue focusing current M lenses on my CLA overhauled M3 . The rangefinder doesn’t show focusing closer than 3 feet with my Macro–Elmar–M. It’s the same for the APO-Summicron-M 50, the Summilux-M 50 Black Chrome, the Summicron-M 35 BC, and the Summaron-M 28. The only lenses that show focusing in the rangefinder for all distances are the Thambar-M, my original DR Summicron, and goggle Summicron 35. I have no problem with any of these three lenses on my M-A or MP, so I wonder what the issue is with the M3. I am reluctant to send it back for more CLA because it took forever to get it serviced, though everything else was good on my goggle 35 and 50, as well as my MR-4 meter. Edited October 24, 2022 by Ernest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted October 24, 2022 Share #10 Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) Hello Ernest, Many M3's, unless modified, only focus to 1 meter/40 inches. It is the M2 & later "M" cameras that focus to 0.7 meters/28 inches. Unless there is some type of supplementary "goggle" system. Modified M3's (Not all can be modified.) can focus closer than 1 meter/40 inches. The amount closer varies. It is the CAMERA rangefinder measuring system that generally STOPS MEASURING at 1 meter/40 inches with an M3 & at 0.7meters/28 inches with some other "M" cameras. The LENSES that focus closer than 1 meter/40 inches can be MANUALLY focused to their closest limit. I think that the M3 takes a greater variety of Leitz/Leica lenses made over time than some other later "M" models. I think that it takes most, if not all, of the earlier screw mount lenses with adapters also. So, if the focusing patch stops moving at 1 meter/40 inches & the focusing mount of the lens keeps turning with the M3: That is what it is supposed to do. Because of the ingeniousness of the "Wizards of Wetzlar":Some lenses with "goggles" focus closer. Dependent on the specific lens. Best Regards, Michael Edited October 24, 2022 by Michael Geschlecht 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share #11 Posted October 25, 2022 The CLA service partner will have a look at the rangefinder - under their warranty which I find very fair. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 25, 2022 Share #12 Posted October 25, 2022 I am afraid that you will not be able to repair it by yourself, at least top copver, if not rangefinder have to be removed. But good message is - this is not separation and shall be pretty easily fixed by your technician. But I read some contradiction in your messages: in #1 you wrote frame lines and focus patch do move as just described, but the secondary image doesn’t move relative to the primary image. In #3 you wrote key issue is that the patch / secondary image doesn’t move at all,. My question is about spatch - does it move or not. Here is how the rangtefinder looks like under the top cover. Green arrow shows how the secondary image travels. Part marked orange moves when setting distance, in position like this it is without the lens, closets distance. When at infinity this part is moved by cam follower inside the rangefinder deflecting secondary image. Right photo show brightline masks (taken out for cleaning) - rectangle in the middle is the patch when the secondary image is visible. The whole brightline assembly move left/tight and up/down when (paralax) at close distance. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My first thought was that the axis of cam follower is sticky, but when you say it moves freely and returns immediately after pressing it than it is not. You wrote as well that brightline are moving correctly when changing the distance so the problem must be in the orange, deflecting part. On the next photo you may see bootom side of rangefinder (when dosmounted from the camera). The mobable, deflecting part is marked orange (as reference to the photo above). Spring marked blue is pretty strong and it moved both deflecting part and cam follower arm in the direction shown by arrowns when distance is close or lens removed There could be very, very low chance that you may repair it by yourself. Remove the lens, remove the screw besides brightline illuminating window, you will see the slot of the screw on the movable, deflecting part. Do NOT turn on the screw, it is for vertical adjustment. With the toothpick press on the screw, you will press and keep the deflecting part inside the rangefinder. Cam follower arm shall rotate freely but it will not return by itself (spring is deactivated). Now, carefully rotate the arm pulling it at the same time towards bottom of the camera, 3-4 times back and forth shall be enough. All the time the deflecting part shall be kept pressed inside. Then remove toothpick and check if rangefinder works correctly. But as I wrote - chance is low. And, based on your description hoe the problem started, I still somehow believe that this could be stiff cam follower arm. In such case it has to go to the technician 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My first thought was that the axis of cam follower is sticky, but when you say it moves freely and returns immediately after pressing it than it is not. You wrote as well that brightline are moving correctly when changing the distance so the problem must be in the orange, deflecting part. On the next photo you may see bootom side of rangefinder (when dosmounted from the camera). The mobable, deflecting part is marked orange (as reference to the photo above). Spring marked blue is pretty strong and it moved both deflecting part and cam follower arm in the direction shown by arrowns when distance is close or lens removed There could be very, very low chance that you may repair it by yourself. Remove the lens, remove the screw besides brightline illuminating window, you will see the slot of the screw on the movable, deflecting part. Do NOT turn on the screw, it is for vertical adjustment. With the toothpick press on the screw, you will press and keep the deflecting part inside the rangefinder. Cam follower arm shall rotate freely but it will not return by itself (spring is deactivated). Now, carefully rotate the arm pulling it at the same time towards bottom of the camera, 3-4 times back and forth shall be enough. All the time the deflecting part shall be kept pressed inside. Then remove toothpick and check if rangefinder works correctly. But as I wrote - chance is low. And, based on your description hoe the problem started, I still somehow believe that this could be stiff cam follower arm. In such case it has to go to the technician ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/342176-m3-rangefinder-secondary-image-doesn%E2%80%99t-move/?do=findComment&comment=4544670'>More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 25, 2022 Share #13 Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) vor 3 Minuten schrieb Braaamer: The CLA service partner will have a look at the rangefinder - under their warranty which I find very fair. I was almost finishing my reply when you wrote it... 🙂 Edited October 25, 2022 by jerzy spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share #14 Posted October 25, 2022 Hi Jerzy, thanks a lot for your all efforts describing the potential root causes of the problem. This is very educational, and I hope it serves other in this forum well, too. I am sorry for the terminology misunderstandings I may have caused. What does move are the bright lines / frame lines as well as the bright patch in the center - well, hardly any chance they wouldn't move together. What does not move is the secondary image within the bright patch that should align with the primary image when focusing. I think I would dare trying to apply the potential fix you are describing, however, given that my service technician will fix it, I prefer that rather than screwing up the rangefinder assembly altogether myself. 🙂 Best regards, Erik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted November 5, 2022 Author Share #15 Posted November 5, 2022 Quick update from my end: My service contact confirmed that the rangefinder was stuck, sounds like what Jerzy described above. It was fixed in no time, and since I got it back it works like a Charme. I sure hope it will last for many years. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huss Posted November 6, 2022 Share #16 Posted November 6, 2022 6 hours ago, Braaamer said: Quick update from my end: My service contact confirmed that the rangefinder was stuck, sounds like what Jerzy described above. It was fixed in no time, and since I got it back it works like a Charme. I sure hope it will last for many years. I love a happy ending! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braaamer Posted November 5, 2023 Author Share #17 Posted November 5, 2023 (edited) Dear jerzy, yesterday evening, I found my M3's rangefinder stuck again. This time, rather than sending it to a repair shop, I tried your low-probability solution you described above. It worked beautifully and was really simple to carry out. I would like to thank you very, very much, not only for saving me the logistics, waiting time cost of sending it to a repair shop, but even more so for sharing your knowledge. Now me, the layman, has learned something, and since I expect this problem to happen again, I will now always first try to resolve it myself. Best regards, Erik Edited November 5, 2023 by Braaamer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theviewfinderph Posted October 5, 2024 Share #18 Posted October 5, 2024 Any updates on this topic? Recently got my M3, had it CLAd but when it came back the secondary image was only moving until 2m then after a few tries of focusing to 3m then almost no movemment to infinity. I pressed on the cam following arm.. then i was able to finish a roll of film with that.. but now.. even when pressing on the cam following arm, it only corrects the secondary image once then after i focus it once, it wont move it again unless i manually press the cam following arm again.. :( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 5, 2024 Share #19 Posted October 5, 2024 I would complain to you he workshop that did the CLA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theviewfinderph Posted October 8, 2024 Share #20 Posted October 8, 2024 Thank you i sent it back, i think a dirty part Enjoying the M3 , been reading threads here for education Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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