New 50 Lux - Front Focuses from Infinity but Not MFD? Send for Repair?

[eyeheartny]

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I'm a new M user with an M11 body. In late September I purchased a new Leica Summilux 50mm ASPH from a reputable seller on a private Facebook group. The lens was sealed and date of production was from a few weeks early in September 2022. The lens looked perfect, focus action was super smooth. I took it on a trip a few days later and seemed to be struggling with focus more than on the Voigtlander 35 Ultron II that I have. These are my only two lenses and I only have the M11 body. 

Now that I'm back home, I was continuing to struggle with accurate focus with the 50 Lux. The 35 Ultron does not seem to have issues. I purchased a test target and set up a test at home. It appears that my 50 Lux is front focusing when the focus is moved from the Infinity stop to the target, but the same issues does NOT persist when I move from the MFD stop to the target. Has anyone else seen this issue? What can Leica do to fix this for an under-warranty lens? Or do they just need to replace it? Any idea how long this type of repair takes? Am I screwed for some upcoming trips I'm taking in mid-November and mid-December if I have any hope of getting this lens back for my trip? 

If anyone is willing to help, I also did some test shots with both of my lenses with a fixed/static focus target to verify what I"m seeing. I've put the DNGs from the test in this Dropbox and would be grateful if anyone can let me know if they see anything notable here. 

Here are some preview images of the issues I'm seeing. 

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Edited October 23, 2022 by eyeheartny

[lct]

Did you  try to focus with an EVF?

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[eyeheartny]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Did you  try to focus with an EVF?

Yes. Does not appear to front focus using the LCD. See below. Does that make you think differently about whether it's the body or the lens? 

 

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Here is a pair of shots on the Ultron that don't show the issue to my eye, but now I'm questioning everything! 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by eyeheartny

[lct]

6 minutes ago, eyeheartny said:

Does not appear to front focus using the LCD

You mean whatever way you turn the focus ring?

[eyeheartny]

Just now, lct said:

You mean whatever way you turn the focus ring?

Ah I didn’t test that way, shoot. Can you help me understand what you’re thinking may be the issue based on the live view behavior? I can do more tests later. 

[lct]

I try to understand first if you don't mind. So do you see a difference in LV mode when you focus from infinity or from MFD?

[eyeheartny]

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2 hours ago, lct said:

I try to understand first if you don't mind. So do you see a difference in LV mode when you focus from infinity or from MFD?

Appreciate your help. I shot 3 new pairs, all with Live View. When the target area lit up red with focus peaking I used the 2-second timer to trigger the shutter, then moved the focus tab to the opposite stop and repeated the focusing until the target area lit up red again. I do not see the same issue with front focus from infinity in these pairs. I'm curious how this helps you understand what may be happening, as wouldn't a Live View image always be accurate regardless of issues with the lens? I guess I'm now confused whether the issue is with the lens or the camera body. 

I can supply DNGs if you think that would be helpful. 

 

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Edited October 24, 2022 by eyeheartny

[lct]

Not sure i would rely on focus peaking alone. You may wish to use focus magnification too. If you still see a difference, the lens could be the culprit. I have seen this already, used to come from some play in helicoids. Was an easy fix then but it was not a FLE lens like yours that could well have to be repaired at Wetzlar. An alternative could be to ask for a refund or a replacement but it depends on the law applicable in your country. You will have to send in the lens anyway and possibly the body too i'm afraid.

[eyeheartny]

Just now, lct said:

Not sure i would rely on focus peaking alone. You may wish to use focus magnification too. If you still see a difference, the lens could be the culprit. I have seen this already, used to come from some play in helicoids. Was an easy fix then but it was not a FLE lens like yours that could well have to be repaired at Wetzlar. An alternative could be to ask for a refund or a replacement but it depends on the law applicable in your country. You will have to send in the lens anyway and possibly the body too i'm afraid.

I did use magnification, should have said that. I had magnification on the small part of the target for all these images. 
 

If I don’t see an issue when using Live View with peaking and magnification, do you think it’s the rangefinder or the lens? 

[lct]

1 minute ago, eyeheartny said:

If I don’t see an issue when using Live View with peaking and magnification, do you think it’s the rangefinder or the lens?

Rather the RF then since your issue would appear only in RF mode.

[eyeheartny]

37 minutes ago, lct said:

Rather the RF then since your issue would appear only in RF mode.

But wouldn’t Live View hide any front or back focus issues because it’s seeing through the lens? That’s the whole thing. And I guess the issue is that we don’t know if the DoF on the 35mm is big enough to hide the error if it’s a rangefinder issue or if it’s just the 50mm lens that’s the problem and the RF mechanism is fine. 
 

I’m so, so frustrated with this. Brand new camera and lens and it’s already needing to go back for who knows how long. Just really regretting this whole purchase even though I love the camera. 
 

[Kl@usW.]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb eyeheartny:

Appreciate your help. I shot 3 new pairs, all with Live View. When the target area lit up red with focus peaking I used the 2-second timer to trigger the shutter, then moved the focus tab to the opposite stop and repeated the focusing until the target area lit up red again. I do not see the same issue with front focus from infinity in these pairs. I'm curious how this helps you understand what may be happening, as wouldn't a Live View image always be accurate regardless of issues with the lens? I guess I'm now confused whether the issue is with the lens or the camera body. 

I can supply DNGs if you think that would be helpful. 

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This is the Summilux focussed with Live View, right?  There seems  to be a slight variation, but a front focus anyway. Say 0,5 of the ruler.  Since the sensor sees what you see in the live view, it must be a user thing and we can disregard it for your question. 

As to the Ultron pics: all of them show back focus. 

If, and I´m not sure if I understand the problem correctly, your test with the SLX shows front focus on approaching the target from infinity, but not from MFD but that only focussing with the RF but not when focussing with LV or to a lesser extent, then the explanation for my logic is: 

-- can be the mechanics of the rf lagging behind in one, but not in the other direction. 

-- can be the floating element of the lens lagging behind in one direction, but not the other. 

 

I´ve been shooting the ´lux 50 in all variations for decades. And never had a problem, until I got a digital body and started checking the focus ... drove me crazy and adjusting the minor incongruences cost a lot of money.... Until I stopped checking and just started shooting again. 

My guess, since your stuff is new: the floating element of the ´lux needs to be moved for a while before is gets really smooth. Same may apply to your rangefinder mechanics. 

So my advice is: Stop making lab-tests, start enjoying your great combo and don't worry.  The oof thing your tests show, are completely irrelevant in real life. 

K. 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kl@usW.

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kl@usW.:

So my advice is: Stop making lab-tests, start enjoying your great combo and don't worry.  The oof thing your tests show, are completely irrelevant in real life. 

I understand your concerns so well and feel sorry for that. But I like the statement of @Kl@usW.. You did not tell us what you normally photograph. Maybe these un-precisons are really absolutely irrelevant in your dayly shooting. Maybe you should give up at least for a while that testing. Maybe you forget then. 

Another thing that came into my head: Do you wear glasses? Can it have to do with that? 

I must say that sometimes I get a bit crazy with that kind of problems as well. But at the end I always feel that my results are so satisfying that I gave up that kind of testing 😩 And in fact I never had an M or an associated lens in repair.

[wda]

Did you use a tripod for your calibration tests?

[lct]

8 hours ago, eyeheartny said:

But wouldn’t Live View hide any front or back focus issues because it’s seeing through the lens? 

Just put the camera on a tripod, aim at your target at the centre of the frame, focus with focus magnification from infinity to your target to begin with. When the target is sharp on the LCD, note the focus point on the focus scale of the lens. Then redo the same from the minimum focus distance. Note again the focus point and compare with the previous point. If there is a discrepancy between the two points, the culprit, or one of your culprits, is probably the lens. 
 

[Siriusone59]

While conducting the test lct described, glance up and take note of the focus patch alignment from each direction when magnified live view shows in focus.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Siriusone59
reword

[eyeheartny]

6 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

This is the Summilux focussed with Live View, right?  There seems  to be a slight variation, but a front focus anyway. Say 0,5 of the ruler.  Since the sensor sees what you see in the live view, it must be a user thing and we can disregard it for your question. 

As to the Ultron pics: all of them show back focus. 

The most recent batch of side-by-side images is from the Summilux focused using Live View, yes. Live View is never the problem, and I understand there is variation due to user error. I agree with you we can discard the LV images. The problem is visible in the rangefinder-captured images in post #1, where you can see a substantial front focus when moving from infinity to target and not from MFD to target. 

In terms of the back focus on the Ultron, it looks like it has the opposite pattern of the Summilux. It appears to back focus when coming from MFD and be accurate when coming from infinity, perhaps? I can upload some fresh pics to show but I think there's a reverse pattern of what's happening with the Leica lens. 

6 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

If, and I´m not sure if I understand the problem correctly, your test with the SLX shows front focus on approaching the target from infinity, but not from MFD but that only focussing with the RF but not when focussing with LV or to a lesser extent, then the explanation for my logic is: 

-- can be the mechanics of the rf lagging behind in one, but not in the other direction. 

-- can be the floating element of the lens lagging behind in one direction, but not the other. 

And the part that's driving me absolutely nuts is that I don't know how to tell which one is the issue-- the RF mechanism or the lens. If as you say above the Ultron shows back focus, then would that point to the RF having slack in the system somewhere? A weak spring, or something with one of the cams that moves the RF mechanism? 

To summarize, the problem is this: when moving from infinity to a target (the position I leave my lens parked in all the time at infinity), the rangefinder patch shows what appears to be accurate focus. However, when evaluated on a static target, it front focuses by 1.5-2" consistently when coming from that direction. When going from the MFD position, focus appears more accurate. 

6 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

I´ve been shooting the ´lux 50 in all variations for decades. And never had a problem, until I got a digital body and started checking the focus ... drove me crazy and adjusting the minor incongruences cost a lot of money.... Until I stopped checking and just started shooting again. 

My guess, since your stuff is new: the floating element of the ´lux needs to be moved for a while before is gets really smooth. Same may apply to your rangefinder mechanics. 

So my advice is: Stop making lab-tests, start enjoying your great combo and don't worry.  The oof thing your tests show, are completely irrelevant in real life. 

K. 

 

The problem is it's hard to enjoy shooting pics of people with this lens (what I bought it for, completely seduced by the look of this lens wide open) when the rangefinder makes it look like the eyes are in focus and they turn out not to be. I ruined a bunch of pics on a recent anniversary trip that were just wonderful moments that I couldn't get quite right due to this issue. I started looking into it because I was feeling like the results from this lens didn't make sense and weren't accurate in terms of focus.

When you say these issues from the first batch of images in post #1 are irrelevant in real life, how do you figure? The rangefinder is not at all accurate when coming from infinity to a target. As a new M user I have been training myself to "park" my lenses in infinity for a few reasons-- it makes it predictable to move from the same place every time and I have been getting better at finding approximate focus before the camera even moves up to my eye. Second, infinity is the shortest position for the lens, so if I have to start carrying it at MFD the lens will be longer, which also is not optimal since I wanted the smallest possible setup. 

[eyeheartny]

4 hours ago, M11 for me said:

I understand your concerns so well and feel sorry for that. But I like the statement of @Kl@usW.. You did not tell us what you normally photograph. Maybe these un-precisons are really absolutely irrelevant in your dayly shooting. Maybe you should give up at least for a while that testing. Maybe you forget then. 

Another thing that came into my head: Do you wear glasses? Can it have to do with that? 

I must say that sometimes I get a bit crazy with that kind of problems as well. But at the end I always feel that my results are so satisfying that I gave up that kind of testing 😩 And in fact I never had an M or an associated lens in repair.

Yes, I wear glasses. I don't know how glasses would affect the focus being off when coming from one side or another with the focus tab.

I primarily photograph people, especially with this lens as to me I love portraits with a 50mm. The lack of precision is absolutely a problem as if the eyes appear in focus when shooting at f1.4 when focusing via the rangefinder, the image is not sharp due to the front focus. For any amount of money this would be unacceptable, and especially at this price point. 

[wizard]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb eyeheartny:

The lack of precision is absolutely a problem as if the eyes appear in focus when shooting at f1.4 when focusing via the rangefinder, the image is not sharp due to the front focus.

Another forum member recently reported just the same problem, although the lens he used was a Voigtlaender Nokton 75mm lens, see this link:

Really hard to say whether the camera or the lens is the culprit here.

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[eyeheartny]

37 minutes ago, wizard said:

Another forum member recently reported just the same problem, although the lens he used was a Voigtlaender Nokton 75mm lens, see this link:

Really hard to say whether the camera or the lens is the culprit here.

 

YIKES. Well, I feel better that I'm not alone in this, but I am deeply disappointed that this seems to be a known issue. I'm guessing in my case that it's BOTH the camera and the lens since there is a similar effect on the Ultron 35 I have. There was a post in one of these threads that indicates that it may be an issue of a weak spring that doesn't provide enough pressure when moving from infinity, but the pressure of my finger on the tab when moving from MFD is enough. 

I will likely be asking Leica for a repair/replacement on both the 50 Lux and M11. For well over USD $10k this is just really frustrating and annoying. I know it's a mechanical system and subject to tolerance issues, but not being able to get consistent, accurate focus on a system this expensive is just ludicrous. I am going to call them when my huge morning of work meetings end in a few hours. So, so, so disappointed. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by eyeheartny