Is this IR pollution?

[mirekti]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have been casually checking what the new camera would bring to me and have noticed in one of the reviews on Youtube (go figure), there's a purple cast which looks like IR pollution.
The screenshot was taken from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-z5LuOOnBU

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

What is your experience with M11 in that regards, is it more sensitive to IR than M10, M10-R?
 

[lct]

1 hour ago, mirekti said:

What is your experience with M11 in that regards, is it more sensitive to IR than M10, M10-R?

I have no experience with M10 cameras but my M11 is less IR prone than my M240 let alone M8.2. In case of IR contamination it is mainly magenta and to a lesser extent red that are enhanced whereas it seems that not only magenta and red but also blue (screen) are more saturated in the M11 pic. Also the M11 pic looks darker with a different WB setting apparently.

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, mirekti said:

I have been casually checking what the new camera would bring to me and have noticed in one of the reviews on Youtube (go figure), there's a purple cast which looks like IR pollution.
The screenshot was taken from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-z5LuOOnBU

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

What is your experience with M11 in that regards, is it more sensitive to IR than M10, M10-R?
 

the whites are also different, it looks more like a white balance thing

[adan]

Some random thoughts:

1) the classic IR purples of the M8 were mostly in cloth (esp. dacron, nylon, polyester, etc.) I never saw many IR purple reflections from hard plastics or black metals.

2) Without knowing how the image was processed by that photographer, there are lots of things that can produce purple blacks in post-processing: overall white balance, "shadow tint" in the calibration profile, and so on.

I have opened M11 .DNG files from others that looked really purple - and then once I checked all the processing settings, someone had intentionally dialed in a lot of magenta in both WB and shadow tint sliders (no accounting for taste  ).

Once I neutralized those sliders the purple mostly went away and all the blacks were dead neutral.

(I'm really sensitive to grossed out by magenta casts in pix, ever since I had to deal with Fuji Velvia/Provia magenta tendencies (and even before that). One of the main reasons I switched from Contax G to Leica 20 years ago was exactly for the greener rendering of the 1980s Mandler/Canada lenses, which nicely counteracted the Velvia/Provia stains better than the reddish Zeiss G lenses.  )

3) However, the M9 also had a (slight to moderate) overall magenta color in .DNGs - until I created my own personal calibration profile and neutralized it. My Camera Raw defaults for the M9 include a permanent -12 (Green) shadow tint in the camera calibration profile - for EVERY picture by default. 

Since the M11 is in some ways supposed to be a "return to M9 color," Leica's (or Adobe's) profiling and presets may have been biased to replicate that look.

Edited October 15, 2022 by adan

[SrMi]

48 minutes ago, adan said:

Some random thoughts:

1) the classic IR purples of the M8 were mostly in cloth (esp. dacron, nylon, polyester, etc.) I never saw many IR purple reflections from hard plastics or black metals.

2) Without knowing how the image was processed by that photographer, there are lots of things that can produce purple blacks in post-processing: overall white balance, "shadow tint" in the calibration profile, and so on.

I have opened M11 .DNG files from others that looked really purple - and then once I checked all the processing settings, someone had intentionally dialed in a lot of magenta in both WB and shadow tint sliders (no accounting for taste  ).

Once I neutralized those sliders the purple mostly went away and all the blacks were dead neutral.

(I'm really sensitive to grossed out by magenta casts in pix, ever since I had to deal with Fuji Velvia/Provia magenta tendencies (and even before that). One of the main reasons I switched from Contax G to Leica 20 years ago was exactly for the greener rendering of the 1980s Mandler/Canada lenses, which nicely counteracted the Velvia/Provia stains better than the reddish Zeiss G lenses.  )

3) However, the M9 also had a (slight to moderate) overall magenta color in .DNGs - until I created my own personal calibration profile and neutralized it. My Camera Raw defaults for the M9 include a permanent -12 (Green) shadow tint in the camera calibration profile - for EVERY picture by default. 

Since the M11 is in some ways supposed to be a "return to M9 color," Leica's (or Adobe's) profiling and presets may have been biased to replicate that look.

Thank you for the summary. You are giving good advice, as usual.
I do not believe M11 is supposed to be a "return to M9 color." Instead, some posters speculated that it looks that way. I cannot reproduce their observation, and, AFAIK, Leica has never stated that they want to "return to M9 color." Similarly, some posters have claimed that the M11 has Sony colors, which I also disagree with.

[M11 for me]

I do a lot of landscape with the M11 and to my feeling the rendering of the colors is wonderful and very natural when set to AWB. I like the blue of the sky and the rendering of greens in woods or fields. 

In your case you have a very special sceene: You photographed a screen. You will not get that effect with "normal" sceenes. And still I believe that you could fix the issue easily in post. Am I right?

[Casey Jefferson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Finally someone noticed it *and* start a thread. I notice the same on other samples too but I don't have an M11 in hand so I can't speak for it.

[darylgo]

With M cameras I continue using Uv/Ir filters.  Leica does not have the ability to put a strong enough filter over the sensor.  The SL has zero ir transmission.   As M bodies are introduced the amount decreases, so they’re addressing it similar to the Italian flag. The advantage is shooting M’s with an IR filter gets an image with an iso close to zero (just a guess) for some creative effects. 

[lct]

7 hours ago, adan said:

[...] the classic IR purples of the M8 were mostly in cloth (esp. dacron, nylon, polyester, etc.) I never saw many IR purple reflections from hard plastics [...]

Not enough plastic in Leica gear i guess . Hasselblad was yet the culprit on this M8 pic. Rather the victim to be honest.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mirekti]

2 hours ago, darylgo said:

With M cameras I continue using UV/IR filters.  Leica does not have the ability to put a strong enough filter over the sensor.  The SL has zero ir transmission.   As M bodies are introduced the amount decreases, so they’re addressing it similar to the Italian flag. The advantage is shooting M’s with an IR filter gets an image with an iso close to zero (just a guess) for some creative effects. 

From a technical point of view, what is the difference between putting the UV/IR filter in front of the lens compared to front of the sensor?
I mean, M has one on the sensor (if I am not mistaken), just not strong enough.

Yes, I have a set of UV/IR filters for each of my lenses, and it seems they'll stay on.
Wondered if you get a chance and scene where IR shows up to give it a try and show us before and after i.e. with and without UV/IR filters and M11?

Edited October 15, 2022 by mirekti

[lct]

1 minute ago, mirekti said:

From a technical point of view, what is the difference between putting the UV/IR filter in front of the lens compared to front of the sensor?
I mean, M has one on the sensor (if I am not mistaken), just not strong enough.

Problem is thickness of the sensor stack. The M8 was the champion there with a 0.5mm if memory serves.

[Photoworks]

The only problem is that It is an old video and he was using Lightroom where the profiles only improved later on in ADOBE.

not relevant to what he was demonstrating, Resolution and Noise.

[Photoworks]

6 minutes ago, mirekti said:

Wondered if you get a chance and scene where IR shows up to give it a try and show us before and after i.e. with and without UV/IR filters and M11?

I have tested it, you are double filtering and some color get funky in some light situations.

You should not use any of them outside the M8 system

[mirekti]

3 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

The only problem is that It is an old video and he was using Lightroom where the profiles only improved later on in ADOBE.

not relevant to what he was demonstrating, Resolution and Noise.

True, and I am not sure if this is IR pollution or something else is going on, hence this thread.

[Photoworks]

14 minutes ago, mirekti said:

True, and I am not sure if this is IR pollution or something else is going on, hence this thread.

the only reason why the M8 has an IR issue is because the sensor was make by Kodak and they screwed up the IR filtering.

 

[darylgo]

22 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I have tested it, you are double filtering and some color get funky in some light situations.

You should not use any of them outside the M8 system

Yes, correct, the uv/ir filter is absorbing the ir that would otherwise reach the sensor.  In natural light the greens don't get polluted with Ir, that's where I notice it, difficult to remove.     

The other issue: some report color casts on the edges but I haven't noticed, when I tested for it my eyes could not detect any.  

What lighting gives funky colors? 

[lct]

8 minutes ago, darylgo said:

In natural light the greens don't get polluted with Ir, that's where I notice it

Any pic? I was comparing green and magenta on M11 and M240 here and could not detect significant IR contamination.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[darylgo]

Dark greens is where I noticed it.  

[lct]

12 minutes ago, darylgo said:

Dark greens is where I noticed it.  

Darker than that?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[darylgo]

Too dark 🙂  Nice image, your greens are different, I live in California where our greens are less lush and more desert-like.  

I notice it with broad expanse of green trees and shrubs, especially with the stark brightness of never-ending sunshine.