Apo-Summicron 50mm f/2 ASPH. - just too perfect I don't really fancy it...

[schimmey]

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Good afternoon all...

I have had the above lens for about 1 1/2 months now and not overly excited. Sure it is pin sharp but feel that the image lacks character that (perhaps) comes from slight imperfections. I wonder whether I can get more character from a wider aperture lens. I don't think there will be much noticeable loss in sharpness with a newer 1.4 or .95.

Would be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks.

Paul

Edited September 11, 2022 by schimmey

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[insomnia]

I've sold it after a few months and got back to my beloved 50/1.4 ASPH (feel free to check the link in my signature, I've used it on M9, M10 and SL2-S over the years). Found the APO to render too boring. Your taste might differ.

Edited September 11, 2022 by insomnia

[a.noctilux]

Hello Paul,

before selling it to buy another lens,

buy (if you can find one at your price ) non-asph. Summilux-M 50mm then use the two along for a while.

You will find out quickly.

[Panda2]

When I first got the Apo I was not very excited for a long time. "Where is the magic?!"  

The Apo interestingly/brutally reveals your own shortcomings as a photographer, so if you're not used to having the lens do none of the heavy lifting in a shot it's a culture shock of the negative kind (I came from a Nikkor 58/1.4, that was a lens which did a lot of heavy lifting in my otherwise awful photos, had character and aberrations in spades and etc.) - but after you get bored of the Bokeh/character/imperfections, these of my photos were not great photos underneath to start off with. With the Apo you just jump straight to that point rather than meandering through the "ooo, ahh, character/imperfections" phase. I'm certainly not saying you can't take good photos with a less perfect lens (that would be hilarious, considering masterpieces were done with far worse lenses), just that it's also so so much easier to take a really bad photo with a "perfect" lens.  

What I'm trying to say is that nothing focuses your mind like the 50 Apo, there is no distraction. You own your bad photos and also the good. Now if that sounds too stressful and you'd rather a less critical lens or prefers a particular/different look, then I think changing lens is not a bad idea per se (and I would ignore sharpness as a lens metric, a good picture is rarely ruined by the last percentage points of sharpness, esp when we're talking about Leica 50s, there isn't a bad one in the bunch going all the way to the Elmar 3.5 LTM). But I would seriously question myself first why the photos came out less than ideal before going through the expense of changing lenses. For me, my initial photos with the 50 Apo were bad because they were bad photos, not because I had the wrong lens. Ymmv ofc, but that personally I would not give up on this gem of a lens just yet, give it more time..

Anyway, good luck and have fun experimenting and most of all, ignore what ppl (including this one ) on forums say..

[lct]

The Summicron 50/2 apo is a superb lens indeed. I bought it as an upgrade to my 50/2 v5 but it cannot replace the latter or the v4 that i prefer for portraits and for their compact size generally. Since i also use 50/1.4-1.5 lenses, the 50/2 apo is my least used 50 i must say but i keep it for when i need the best optical performance. Does not happen often to be honest but i'm the only culprit. I prefer character lenses definitely. 

[darylgo]

A technically perfect image is less than satisfying for many photographers.  High megapixel cameras combined with less perfect optics is new territory that is fun to explore.   See above.  

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by darylgo

[Robert Blanko]

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IMHO it strongly depends on the purpose. For landscape photography I prefer a lens which does not add any special „character“ whatsoever to the scene whereas for e.g. portraits I prefer my Summilux or maybe even my Zeiss Sonnar or my Primoplan 75, depending on my mood and ludic drive. That said, I love my APO, but I would not use it for every purpose.

[otto.f]

I’ve owned the Summilux asph and not the 0.95, but I can clearly see here on the forum that @0.95 the Noctilux is quite smooth and dreamy in rendering the shallow depth of field. And I doubt whether it will be as characterless at 2.0 as the APO where you complain about. So I think you will loose sharpness in favor of character. And with the Summilux asph a bit less, at wide apertures that is. 
It also depends on your sensor. Look at this, the classic Summicron on a Monochrom1: 

Perhaps this combination gives the best balance between sharp And character.

Edited September 11, 2022 by otto.f

[wda]

A photographer recently described the latest high-definition television sets as 'too sharp'. It hurt his eyes, he claimed. I know what he means. The same can be said for some very expensive lenses sold today; the rendering can be too sharp, even painfully sharp. I know this will be very controversial, and it is a limited point of view; but the phenomenon can explain why there is so much controversy over 'rendering' and 'Leica look'. It also explains the hunger for older lenses and the way they produce pictures today. I suspect the OP is experiencing some of these perceptions with his new APO 50 mm lens. But buying and selling lenses only complicates the issue.

When I bought my 50 mm Summilux, I thought it might replace my Summicron. It did not. Neither did it render my V2 Summicron 'surplus to needs'. To the contrary. I am content to work with them all, depending on the subjects being photographed. The Summilux is my top-drawer lens, but it is a welcome companion to my 50 mm Summicron (Non-APO) lens. Just stop and consider the occasions when you require super-sharp rendering. It is not as often as you might think.

[Guest]

If one can afford an Apo-Summicron 2.0-50, he should additionally buy an inexpensive, older and imperfect lens instead of lamenting the excessive perfection that it is not up to him.

[spydrxx]

What body are you using it on? That can make a difference, slight, I know. My experience with too sharp lenses is that the novelty soon wears off and I revert to something more pleasing to my eye. Having said that, DON'T sell it until you find a replacement which more closely meets your needs, and even then don't sell it for at least a year, to see if perhaps your opinion has changed or your need for it has grown. Most people who sell Leica lenses (which are in good shape, and not dealers) eventually regret their sale. You haven't even had it for a year...waaaay too short a time to really explore its full range of capabilities. Get a good vintage lens as its comparative "brother" to help you decide what you really like. Take both on a holiday alternating shooting with both. Do some portraits with both, and landscapes or street photography as well...that should give you a sense of the criteria which matter to you. And don't get sucked into GAS syndrome or you'll have too  many lenses and possibly have anxiety deciding which to use at any given time. Wisdom comes with experience, which you don't yet have.

[LeicaR10]

Schimmey,   I understand your concern over the perfection of the M 50 Apo Summicron.  It is clearly a masterpiece of Leica optical engineering.  You didn't mention your genres of photography in your OP thread, but the 50 Apo is a standout for that focal length of lenses.  You have already received a number of well meaning forum members ideas and experiences, mine included.  IMO, the many of Leica lenses are like an artist paint brushes.  Each brush renders a different effect for the artist. Leica M lenses are very similar to those paint brushes with each designed to render in a different way.  The M 50 Apo Summcron renders optical perfection.  If you are looking for something different, perhaps you might look at the Leica M 50 Summilux-Asph (it is also a Apo lens it just doesn't say so), or as others suggest a Leica M 50 Summilux pre-Asph.  If you want something with a split personality and rendering, try the M 50 Noctilux f/1.2 version 2.  Wide open it renders the Noctilux creamy/dreamy bokeh depending how you use the lens, at f/2.8 and beyond it becomes a highly resolving 50mm lens.  There are others, but as I wrote, each has its own rendering and "personality" so to speak.  Ultimately, it is up to your personal preferences and wallet.  In the meantime, you might check out this site to get an idea how the different Leica M lenses render.  Just my 2 cents.  r/ Mark

Try:   https://onfotolife.com/lenses?lens=Leica

PS...Leica Rumors has mentioned a M 50 Summilux might be forthcoming.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is announced in October...or this year.

Edited September 11, 2022 by LeicaR10

[shirubadanieru]

Most ASPH / APO lenses coming out from Leica in recent years look great on a chart, but are boring / clinical from an output perspective. (Simply stating my opinion, not saying it's a fact as this is a very personal matter).

If you prefer unique / dreamy rendering over perfection I would highly recommend you to look at Leica lenses from the 50s and 60s. This includes:

- 50mm pre-asph Summilux f1.4

- 50mm Rigid Summicron f2

- 50mm Elmar f2.8

- 35mm pre-asph Summilux f1.4

- 35mm 8 elements Summicron f2

- 35mm Summaron f2.8

Edited September 12, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[jakontil]

My apo is a companion lens sometimes, it’s more like a cheat code lens for my usage, when shooting not so ideal, here comes the apo

[FrozenInTime]

11 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

PS...Leica Rumors has mentioned a M 50 Summilux might be forthcoming.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is announced in October...or this year.

Which means it will be generally available in 2024 !

p.s. watch out for sticky focus on the current 50 Summilux M ; stiff when new and stiction with age, as the grease in the helicoid migrates - a mechanical design flaw.

[lct]

2 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Which means it will be generally available in 2024 !

p.s. watch out for sticky focus on the current 50 Summilux M ; stiff when new and stiction with age, as the grease in the helicoid migrates - a mechanical design flaw.

Any link about those stiction with age and design flaw? Just curious as i never heard of that on such a modern lens but i may be missing something. 

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

p.s. watch out for sticky focus on the current 50 Summilux M ; stiff when new and stiction with age, as the grease in the helicoid migrates - a mechanical design flaw.

Exaggerated and outdated. This phenomenon was/is hardly an irritation and vanishes in a few months if you use it as regular as one is supposed to do when you just bought a new lens.

[FrozenInTime]

18 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Exaggerated and outdated. This phenomenon was/is hardly an irritation and vanishes in a few months if you use it as regular as one is supposed to do when you just bought a new lens.

Maybe - there could be internal changes, but on the surface the design does not appear to have changed over the years, other than the black chrome special that became regular production.

My 2007 example started okay but after five years the front became loose, so I paid for a Leica factory rebuild, with a new helicoid ; which remained annoyingly stiff, enough to cause backlash crossing 1m. I traded it in long ago for a Noctilux, which has perfectly smooth focus travel. 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

Not sure i would generalize. My 50/1.4 asph from 2004 was stiff at launch and remained so in spite of regular use. Leica changed its grease while calibrating the lens for digital in 2014. Lens is butterly smooth since then.

Edited September 12, 2022 by lct

[farnz]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

Exaggerated and outdated. This phenomenon was/is hardly an irritation and vanishes in a few months if you use it as regular as one is supposed to do when you just bought a new lens.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Lot.  My 50/1.4 Summilux asph was brand new in 2007, the focus action was slightly jerky from new and it was an irritation particularly where accurate, quick focus was crucial. 

Despite being assured that the focus action would 'wear in' and become smooth it remained sticky and jerky for 10 years.  The only thing that smoothed it out was trading it on a black chrome version, which is buttery smooth and a joy to use.  I accept that all of the original 50/1.4 Summilux asphs might not have had sticky focus actions but mine certainly did.

Pete.