New M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron focusing issue ?

[insomnia]

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Actually I have given up with the M after not being able to work with a 90/2.8 reliably - with close to 10 years of experience with 50/1.4 (mainly street photography). Maybe I'll come back if they put a decent EVF inside, I won't put an external EVF on such a beautiful body. So far I'm extremely happy with the SL2-S and I begin to be just as quick with it.

[charlesphoto99]

51 minutes ago, insomnia said:

It's not just about quality control. It's extremely difficult to accurately focus a fast tele lens with the rangefinder.

Not really. 135MM APO, Leica M10M. Full frame. This was before the lens was sent off for calibration, so I was usually guessing where the patch should land to be in focus. Just takes lots (years/decades) of practice. If I was only shooting sports or birds, then I would choose something different than an M, but the M tele, once calibrated, I find quite easy to use, but like all things M, shoot for emotional, not perfection. 

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[insomnia]

Everyone who calls it easy as cake to focus a 90 or a 135 with a rangefinder must be a natural talent. I talked to enough people who gave up on it.

Tolerances are that tight, it can make a difference if you hit your target „coming from infinity“ rather than the other way around. Tested that on stills, I was pretty… let’s call it annoyed.

[lct]

No problem to focus the 90/2 apo at any aperture in LV mode here. In RF mode it may be more difficult but the lens works well at f/2.8 and on too. Now if you dont need f/2 the Elmarit 90/2.8 v2 and Summarit 90/2.4 are highly recommended too.

[insomnia]

Ummm, yeah we’re not talking about LV 🙂

[jdlaing]

If you equate it to dollars, like you did in Post #16, you have no business with a rangefinder camera. 

[lct]

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15 minutes ago, insomnia said:

Ummm, yeah we’re not talking about LV 🙂

Why so?

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Why so?

According to @insomnia, because Visoflex on M11 looks ugly 🤔.

[lct]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

[insomnia]

To me it doesn't make sense to buy a camera-lens combo that is a compromise in the first place. If it's your third-fourth lens, alright.

[lct]

1 hour ago, insomnia said:

To me it doesn't make sense to buy a camera-lens combo that is a compromise in the first place.

Makes sense since the first Visoflex in the fifties. Nothing new under the sun .

Edited August 24, 2022 by lct

[insomnia]

There's plenty other options under the sun for 14k.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, jdlaing said:

If you equate it to dollars, like you did in Post #16, you have no business with a rangefinder camera. 

That was the OP, different person.

Jeff

[lct]

3 minutes ago, insomnia said:

There's plenty other options under the sun for 14k.

That's what nicanopus photogs used to say half a century ago. Been there with my M4 but i had a Canon too. Little new in all that .

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I have had my perfectly calibrated 90mm Summicron ASPH for nearly a decade and it’s one of the lenses I use to test my cameras calibration. I have zero issues at any distance at any aperture focusing this lens. I used it to track focus, wide open, brides walking down the aisle for years with my M9’s and 240’s. But this is not a lens that allows for even slightly lax technique.

The 90mm Summicron will test a photographers technique. Practice. Practice. Practice. Especially at distance, where the smaller frameline is harder to work with. It is not the lens I’d buy first.

The XCD 80mm is a better lens. But it’s got the same angle of view as a 65mm in 135 format. So you’d be looking at a 75mm as the closest in Leica land, not a 90. A Summilux as well. The XCD 80 is also one of the slowest focusing HB lenses in a system that is known for slow focusing and it weighs a kilo. I still love it and use it. It is one of the best portrait lenses ever made. I just don’t compare it in any way to a 90mm Summicron M.

Re: Leica M calibration. Calibration is done within a range. There is no absolute or fixed point of calibration. And lenses and bodies have a range of acceptable calibration. This is smaller and better done on the M10 and M11 than other digital bodies and much tighter tolerances than the film bodies. But it’s still rarely possible to have a body that’s slightly forward and a lens that’s the same which exaggerates the discrepancy. Or the same rearward. That’s why we test in store. These are mechanical devices. Price has nothing to do with it. The improved tolerances does make this less likely than before. Generally the additive tollerance isn’t more than the accuracy of the RF but as the RF gets pushed harder it’s easier to see.

Gordon

[Sharphoto]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:25 PM, Jeff S said:

That was the OP, different person.

Jeff

Can the Leica M11 be calibrated for more than one lens ? 75mm f2 Summicron and a 35mm f1.4 Summilux ?

Edited August 29, 2022 by Sharphoto

[Jeff S]

41 minutes ago, Sharphoto said:

Can the Leica M11 be calibrated for more than one lens ? 75mm f2 Summicron and a 35mm f1.4 Summilux ?

Leica calibrates the camera and lens separately, each to a standard, unless otherwise specified. The service group typically requests that all gear be sent for calibration to eliminate customer guesswork and avoid back and forth shipping.

Jeff

Edited August 29, 2022 by Jeff S

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, insomnia said:

Everyone who calls it easy as cake to focus a 90 or a 135 with a rangefinder must be a natural talent. I talked to enough people who gave up on it.

Tolerances are that tight, it can make a difference if you hit your target „coming from infinity“ rather than the other way around. Tested that on stills, I was pretty… let’s call it annoyed.

That's called gear lash. You have to have a movement tolerance otherwise the gears would be so tight you couldn't move them. It only shows up on a few lenses seriously. The 135 APO being the main modern one and a few of the older 90's. My 90APO doesn't have gear lash issues that extend beyond the DoF, which is why I like it as a reference for calibration.

I'd love all my M gear to be perfect, all the time, with no issues like this. But that, unfortunately is the price of using a mechanical focus system. It's also why SLR's eventually took over from rangefinders as you can see the focus through the VF so gear lash isn't a functional issue even though many older SLR lenses have very sloppy gearing tolerances.

Gordon

[Herr Barnack]

On 8/22/2022 at 6:05 PM, Sharphoto said:

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If it's on google, it has got to be true!  😅

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[Herr Barnack]

On 8/24/2022 at 9:35 AM, insomnia said:

It's not just about quality control. It's extremely difficult to accurately focus a fast tele lens with the rangefinder.

I would say it is a challenge and it takes some practice - but I wouldn't say it's extremely difficult.

I have the 90 f/2 APO (#11-884) and have used it with my M-P 240 and M10M, neither of which has been "calibrated" other than what is done when the cameras are being made at Leica world HQ. 

Getting good results with the 90/2 APO just a matter of using the lens and getting some experience with it.  It is also a matter of knowing the lens - knowing that at f/2, the depth of field is really thin.  Knowing that as you get closer to your subject, the depth of field gets even thinner still.  Knowing that at close range, there's no crime in shooting some insurance shots at f/2.8 and f/4.  Knowing that at close range, you will still get shallow DOF and a nice background bokeh even at F/2.8 or f/4.

Some lenses ask more of the photographer; the 90mm f/2 APO is one of them.  Put in a little effort and you will be rewarded.