Leica Plasti line (Plasticron, Plastilux...)

[pgk]

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10 minutes ago, 250swb said:

So the point is plastic doesn't have to mean a lack of performance, it only means cheap.

Ummmm. Not so sure on this. I think that you will find that there are 'plastic' elements used in a surprising number of camera lenses and that they can offer advantages. But it all depends on what the design is striving to achieve. Molded plastic lenses can be used because they are cheap, but they can also be used because they offer different and useful characteristics with performance benefits and weight reduction (important for fast moving internal groups). They may also have disadvantages, such as hardness (or lack of), thermal expansion characteristics and ageing/longevity, depending on their composition. When relevant plastic can be useful but perhaps we need to define precisely what we mean by 'plastic' because, the word is used to cover a vast array of materials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic some of which are not cheap.

In terms of longevity I am not so sure that the perceptions which go along with the name make them acceptable for a premium brand like Leica if for no other reason that they do not have a perceived long and useful lifespan because they have not been around all that long (which may of course be an incorrect perception as plastics can be frustratingly long lived materials).

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[lct]

Leica lenses are supposed to be used for half a century at least. Polycarbonate parts assembled in the Canadian made Summicron 35/2 v4 did not keep their specs that long apparently.

[pgk]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Leica lenses are supposed to be used for half a century at least. Polycarbonate parts assembled in the Canadian made Summicron 35/2 v4 did not keep their specs that long apparently.

This is probably a case of inadequate engineering IMO. Insufficiently robust components will fail especially if they are made of a material which isn't appropriate and the plastic used in such lenses tends to suffer from impact damage, which would have had an negative effect on a similar metal, part but equally it might have been easier to repair. That said, many older lenses suffer from balsam separation, edge delamination, fungus, edge chipping and more (I have examples). Time is very good at exploiting weaknesses in designs and materials, especially when they suffer damage. And, yes I had a vIV with problems and no spares were available. If someone is prepared to have the plasic part 3D scanned, I'm sure that a 3D printed version would be of interest to repairers .....

[250swb]

28 minutes ago, pgk said:

In terms of longevity I am not so sure that the perceptions which go along with the name make them acceptable for a premium brand like Leica if for no other reason that they do not have a perceived long and useful lifespan because they have not been around all that long (which may of course be an incorrect perception as plastics can be frustratingly long lived materials).

Bakelite was the first commercially used plastic and that was invented in 1907, so plastics have been around longer than Leica cameras. But I think we've got to think beyond the components of an Airfix kit and look at the wider use of polymers and composite materials that come under the general and ever widening term 'plastic' which have moved on not only since 1907 but also the 1970's when Leica created their own problems with plastics. 85% of a Formula1 car is now made from composites and Formula 1 is a leader for advanced technologies. If they can 3D print plastic's (and metals) and form complex shapes measured down to the micron Leica can surely make a plastic lens barrel or top plate. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by 250swb

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16 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

The achievement of using Plastic is to cripple the product to the point of it feeling shitty.

A Holga, if it was made of aluminum, could be sold at a premium because shitty feeling gone.

Actually this is a question for another forum: Would you pay 100$ for a Holga Made out of Aluminum?

200$ if made of Brass?

I remember when Canon started to use plastic for their FD range of lenses and people wondering how well they would last, would they break easily if dropped etc. etc.

They still work fine and were optically as good as the older metal lenses. Didn't feel shitty either.

So, plastic lenses should be just fine. If Leica were to introduce such a range they would be better off selling them for a higher price, not less. That would ensure 'exclusivity' and sales.

[lct]

12 minutes ago, pgk said:

This is probably a case of inadequate engineering IMO. Insufficiently robust components will fail especially if they are made of a material which isn't appropriate and the plastic used in such lenses tends to suffer from impact damage, which would have had an negative effect on a similar metal, part [...]

Interesting to read what our colleague @derleicaman wrote about that:

 

[pgk]

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5 minutes ago, lct said:

Interesting to read what our colleague @derleicaman wrote about that:

Well, I've seen (cheaper) lenses using plastic helicoids and zoom cam mechanisms which are not dis-similar. And as plastics have been used by numerous other manufacturers in their lenses I think that the problem with these parts made of plastic by Leica was most likely poor design and engineering to cut costs. Most still work fine but it is when they get damaged that the problems really arise. Many plastic part lenses are irrepairable today unless spares are available and even then the spares need to be 'sections' as stripping down many lenses is terribly time consuming and costs can quickly exceed value. The v. IV Summicron is an interesting problem because its still an expensive lens but one with no spares, so if spares can be made they should be worth making unless very expensive.

[lct]

Seen so many problems with plastic parts in marine industry (hull delaminations) that I can't help thinking that the manufacturers of those parts don't think about a use over several decades.

[kivis]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:04 AM, jaapv said:

It is so obvious that even if Leica should decide to build reduced-quality mass goods, which they never would, it runs counter to everything they stand for, that it would never be sold under the Leica brand.
This is an “if” question. If I were green and small I would live on Mars And use a plastic Aciel lens. 

I'm sorry some those Leica/Pany compact cameras do not inspire.

[jakontil]

Plastics last, dont decompose easily and probably wont dissolve in any situation apart from heat

so quality wise it should be good and high quality .. with that said, i wont use it and prefer the more rugged feels of metals

i even choose brass over aluminium somehow

[cboy]

Hypothetical. Suppose the Pana - Leica Collab produce a coengineered lens made of bio ceramic ( essentially a plastic composite),but internally Leica optics do you think it would be popular? To a Leica affiacanado they might snub the idea, but to the masses itching to get into a cost prohibitive system surely they would consider at least trying right? Case in point the success of the moon swatch which actually proved to be a success to the brand and as well increases sales of the original moon watch. To think an imitation product would be popular right. 🙃

[pgk]

There's always carbon fibre, but read on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-fiber-reinforced_polymers