frame-it Posted July 23, 2022 Share #81 Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 47 minutes ago, SrMi said: You know that selected WB has no effect on raw files (there are weird exceptions). Manufacturers never intend for untreated raw files to have good colors. strange reply, but im not going to argue with you [ref:post#61] do what you think is best for your files Edited July 23, 2022 by frame-it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 23, 2022 Posted July 23, 2022 Hi frame-it, Take a look here I love my M11, (and Q2 Mono) but..... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #82 Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) I have no idea about current Fuji cameras but the colors of my X-E2 raw files are not easy to tweak in PP. Too much orange and cyan saturation for my taste but this is subjective obviously. Nothing to do with Sony colors that i can hardly recognise compared to Leica ones as far as the M11 is concerned at least. The colors of my M240 are a bit more yellowish with reds tending to clip too easily. Edited July 23, 2022 by lct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Share #83 Posted July 23, 2022 37 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: It does with a DNG/adobe workflow. The 'AsShotNeutral' tag that the camera embeds in the DNG (whether that value is AWB/Preset/or user defined via a WB card) is the one variable in a fixed mathematical process that starts with unwhite-balanced RAW data and ends in XYZ D50 WB can be changed after the fact in the RAW app though RawDigger does not look at or implement tags. By raw data, I meant data without applying any tags or profiles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Share #84 Posted July 23, 2022 19 minutes ago, frame-it said: strange reply, but im not going to argue with you [ref:post#61] do what you think is best for your files Now that is a strange reply 😄. My point is that raw data, without applying the accompanying information can have a strong to tint or discoloration. RawDigger does not recognize any of the accompanying information. That is why nobody looks with RawDigger to evaluate colors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 23, 2022 Share #85 Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, SrMi said: My point is that raw data, without applying the accompanying information can have a strong to tint or discoloration. RawDigger does not recognize any of the accompanying information. That is why nobody looks with RawDigger to evaluate colors. i obviously didn't mean black and white raw pixel data...and im sure you know that. and what i said was "he should have opened both raw files in raw therapy or raw digger.." whatever. Edited July 23, 2022 by frame-it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Share #86 Posted July 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, frame-it said: i obviously didn't mean black and white raw pixel data...and im sure you know that. Please read this: https://www.rawdigger.com/node/2411 Excerpt: RawDigger is not targeted to get exact (or even good) color matching. RawDigger primary goal is to get access to unaltered (source) RAW data, RGB rendering display is provided only to not confuse users with 'RAW composite' unusual (greenish) look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted July 23, 2022 Share #87 Posted July 23, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 hours ago, SrMi said: RawDigger does not look at or implement tags. By raw data, I meant data without applying any tags or profiles. You can see the as shot neutral tag in rawdigger (in the exif section) this tag is in every dng. in hideously over simplified form it’s something like (from memory) CM-1*asn = (x) mired = XYZ of the RAW data (notes below) - then some more maths to make kelvin values but yeah moving the WB in LR electively changes it, so it’s not set in stone (well it is, but the effect of it isn’t) as a woolly analogy, if you have a handful of sand you can quantify it as x grams of sand or x thousand particles of sand, but without the system of numbers you have a random handful of sand! Likewise RAW needs a system to be something (colours) and that system starts with a tag coded into the RAW at its point of creation notes This is why the as shot WB values change in LR if you swap between leica embedded and adobe standard (different color matrix = CM) and why making a profile with a colorchecker makes more accurate colours, it makes a new CM. When Leica release FW that removes colour cast they’ve changed the algorithm behind the ASN tag But I digress… you’ve got to be pretty geeky on the DNG pipeline before any of this is relevant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Share #88 Posted July 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said: You can see the as shot neutral tag in rawdigger (in the exif section) this tag is in every dng. in hideously over simplified form it’s something like (from memory) CM-1*asn = (x) mired = XYZ of the RAW data (notes below) - then some more maths to make kelvin values but yeah moving the WB in LR electively changes it, so it’s not set in stone (well it is, but the effect of it isn’t) as a woolly analogy, if you have a handful of sand you can quantify it as x grams of sand or x thousand particles of sand, but without the system of numbers you have a random handful of sand! Likewise RAW needs a system to be something (colours) and that system starts with a tag coded into the RAW at its point of creation notes This is why the as shot WB values change in LR if you swap between leica embedded and adobe standard (different color matrix = CM) and why making a profile with a colorchecker makes more accurate colours, it makes a new CM. When Leica release FW that removes colour cast they’ve changed the algorithm behind the ASN tag But I digress… you’ve got to be pretty geeky on the DNG pipeline before any of this is relevant! The tag is in EXIF, but RawDigger does not use it to display the colors, AFAIK. Here is an example for M10-R, the green one is from RawDigger, the other is from LrC. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334750-i-love-my-m11-and-q2-mono-but/?do=findComment&comment=4475914'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted July 23, 2022 Share #89 Posted July 23, 2022 3 hours ago, SrMi said: The tag is in EXIF, but RawDigger does not use it to display the colors, AFAIK it's using something to display the colours or they'd be nothing to look at! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Share #90 Posted July 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: it's using something to display the colours or they'd be nothing to look at! You are right! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakontil Posted July 24, 2022 Share #91 Posted July 24, 2022 7 hours ago, SrMi said: The tag is in EXIF, but RawDigger does not use it to display the colors, AFAIK. Here is an example for M10-R, the green one is from RawDigger, the other is from LrC. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! so basically any camera is only seeing what the first picture ? thats without any profiles or sauce whatsoever Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 24, 2022 Share #92 Posted July 24, 2022 37 minutes ago, jakontil said: so basically any camera is only seeing what the first picture ? thats without any profiles or sauce whatsoever AFAIK: A camera sees only numbers in raw files. RawDigger and Lightroom interpret the numbers to make the final colors. RawDigger tries to make correct colors, for easier viewing. It succeeds with M11's DNGs, but not with M10-Rs DNGs (green cast). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 24, 2022 Share #93 Posted July 24, 2022 8 hours ago, SrMi said: AFAIK: A camera sees only numbers in raw files. RawDigger and Lightroom interpret the numbers to make the final colors. RawDigger tries to make correct colors, for easier viewing. It succeeds with M11's DNGs, but not with M10-Rs DNGs (green cast). The .dng files from the camera already contain all the colors before any photo processing software ever sees the photo. The camera image engine produces it and makes the .dng file. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 24, 2022 Share #94 Posted July 24, 2022 57 minutes ago, jdlaing said: The .dng files from the camera already contain all the colors before any photo processing software ever sees the photo. The camera image engine produces it and makes the .dng file. The data in the raw file is not color. Instead, it contains the response of the camera's sensor to the light. The raw developer is responsible for turning that data into color. Here is a relevant article by Jim Kasson:Roles of camera and raw developer in determining color 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Vonn Posted July 24, 2022 Share #95 Posted July 24, 2022 Thread successfully derailed it seems. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted July 24, 2022 Share #96 Posted July 24, 2022 12 minutes ago, Ray Vonn said: Thread successfully derailed it seems. Thankfully. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Vonn Posted July 24, 2022 Share #97 Posted July 24, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, hdmesa said: Thankfully. Well done all! At least I can be aware the next time the same protagonists start doing the same thing again. Edited July 24, 2022 by Ray Vonn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 24, 2022 Share #98 Posted July 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Ray Vonn said: Thread successfully derailed it seems. The article that I shared in #94 is relevant to the OP: what role does a sensor play in the final output. Or did I miss the point of OP? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted July 24, 2022 Share #99 Posted July 24, 2022 52 minutes ago, Ray Vonn said: Well done all! At least I can be aware the next time the same protagonists start doing the same thing again. Yes, because what we really need more of is new members posting "I compared an M11 and a Sony, and I can't see a difference" kind of posts. New users should not be able to start new threads until they have about 50-100 posts under their belt. Many forums do this, and it helps keep "Sony versus X" troll-posting to a minimum. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Vonn Posted July 24, 2022 Share #100 Posted July 24, 2022 27 minutes ago, SrMi said: The article that I shared in #94 is relevant to the OP: what role does a sensor play in the final output. Or did I miss the point of OP? I believe the OP has left the forum. Just others talking amongst themselves now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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