Confessions of a defector to Sony

[Markey]

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I`ve shot both Canon and Sony and Leica M of course but now get most satisfaction from my CL.

I do have an SL2s with 24/70  , 90/280 , a 246 and M4 but its still the CL which I reach after day after day.

The viewfinder is fogging up and I`ll be sorry if and when it becomes unusable.

Very interesting thread by the way 

 

Edited April 19 by Markey

[Jackalope]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:33 AM, rob_w said:

Caveat:  What I say here is not intended to detract from Leica, the CL or the many photographers and friends on this forum who are happy to continue using their CL and take wonderful photos.  After all, I owned a CL system myself and probably would have continued if the CL2 had come along.  My needs are particular to me and have driven my choices, for my situation.

In March this year I packed up my entire CL outfit and sold it.  For the first time in 40 years there was no Leica in the house – a shock to me and even to my family, who wondered out loud if I was doing the right thing.  I promised to report back to friends on this forum re what happened next.  This is my report.

Before I sold the CL I had intended to stay with the L mount, perhaps a Panasonic S5, but when I investigated further, I decided on a complete change to Sony instead.  Sony has a history of compact, light digital cameras, it is in their DNA so to speak.  Their sales lagged Canon and Nikon until, around five years ago, their early adoption of mirrorless technology started to pay off.  Now Sony has caught up with and perhaps overtaken their Japanese rivals, and is arguably the mainstream camera system of choice in 2022.

Enclosed inside my Leica world, I had not realised these changes were taking place.  I thought of Sony as a purveyor of tired Minolta lenses that never made first rank and a flotilla of point-and-shoot cameras for the masses.  I was by no means ready to consider them a serious alternative.  Fast-forward to now: after a lot of research and persuasion I purchased a Sony A7R4 and a set of lenses.  It has been used for several thousand pictures taken during outings, events and overseas trips. 

Here are the key points from that experience:

The camera.  The A7R4 is relatively small and compact at 660gm – a little less than the S5 and considerably less than the SL range.  My CL + handgrip was slightly lighter at 550gm.  I love: the 61Mp BSI sensor, the 5.76Mp OLED viewfinder, IBIS, tilt screen, eye-detect autofocus.  The AF is in another league: remarkably fast and accurate, easy to adjust for specific focusing intentions and to combine with manual focusing.  (No more ‘wandering focus point’!)  All the features I wanted in a “CL2” and more.

The lenses.  I started with the Sony 24G/2.8 and the Sigma 45/2.8, at 183gm and 215gm respectively.  I chose the Sigma since it is popular with SL users and was well reviewed by Sean Reid, but have since replaced it with the Zeiss 55ZA/1.8 which is a better lens in every respect: sharp at full aperture, superior micro-contrast and better colour rendition.  This Zeiss lens weighs 280gm and is 70mm long.  It has been around for 10 years and is the sort of lens Leica should have been designing when they embarked on their SL primes.  In real life usage, its performance easily matches the SL50/2.0 Summicron which I have also owned and used extensively. 

Perhaps the biggest surprise is what an open standard the Sony E mount is.  There is a huge range of lenses from which to choose.  Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander and others are all available in native E mount with the right electronic contacts for AF, IBIS and EXIF data.  Sony’s own lens designs have moved to the front of the pack.  I own the Sony 35GM/1.4 which is simply stunning from wide open onwards -- IMHO the best lens I have ever owned.

The buttons.  This was the part I dreaded.  There are indeed a lot of buttons and the menu system is unnecessarily confusing.  Nothing for it but to wrap a cold towel around my head and slog through the manual and videos for several difficult days.  That done, I now have the camera set up the way I want and don’t make any changes other than operational ones.  On the other hand, the lenses have physical aperture rings, which I like, a visible exposure compensation dial which I use all the time, and each control continues to do the same thing even when I change mode.  None of the buttons do double duty so the camera is not confusing when you are actually shooting.

The brand.  Sony is a consumer electronics company not a boutique luxury goods manufacturer, so there is no ‘white glove’ experience.  Styling is utilitarian but at least not offensive.  Products come in printed cardboard boxes and bubble wrap.  Not many will fetishise owning an A7 as a desirable object (although some do).  Prices, of course, are laughable for anyone who has lived in Leica land for 40 years.  My entire 5 lens set including a couple of premium objectives cost about the same as one Leica SL prime.

The results.  The ‘proof of the pudding’ is that the pictures variously please and amaze.  So much so that when editing it’s hard to choose the rejects.  The AF is a big factor in that.  No matter how good a lens, you only see its quality if the picture itself is in focus.  And every picture is sharp at the point of focus even in demanding conditions.

For holidays and outings, I can fit the camera and one or two lenses into the same camera bags I used for the CL and before that for the M240.  The weight difference is negligible.  I can crop any lens to 26Mp in APS-C and see the effect in the viewfinder, giving me four effective focal lengths with a two-prime day kit.  Or I can take my trusty Sigma 18-50 APS-C zoom which delivers excellent results, as many here already know. 

So I have my “CL2” with everything I wanted, and with full frame as a bonus.  Oh yes, and there is an A7R5 rumoured for release later this year, which we do expect Sony to deliver.

This is from a Sony defector to Leica. I had the A7RII and would agree with everything you say about it. The problem comes when you add lenses The camera is simply no longer comparable to the CL with any of the Leica lenses: it is huge, heavy, and bulky. Once you add anything but a pancake, you're in SL territory, not CL.

[lct]

An a7r2 with M lens has a similar size as an M camera with the same lens. Here a7s and M240, both with Elmar-M 50/2.8.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[IkarusJohn]

20 hours ago, lct said:

An a7r2 with M lens has a similar size as an M camera with the same lens. Here a7s and M240, both with Elmar-M 50/2.8.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This photo should be posted every time someone proposes IBIS and other “improvements” without a clear understanding of the complications of the register distance required for M lenses.  Even the diminutive Elmar-M 50/2.8 looks large and out of proportion on the A7, once you add the adapter.  To my eye, M lenses look better on M cameras.  Apart, perhaps, from the larger M lenses like the Noctilux and 21 Summilux on the SL …

[lct]

21 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

This photo should be posted every time someone proposes IBIS and other “improvements” without a clear understanding of the complications of the register distance required for M lenses [...]

Just different register distances at play there as the a7s has no IBIS.

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Just different register distances at play there as the a7s has no IBIS.

Yep, that was my point.  Putting M lenses on nn-M cameras Requires an adapter, which makes the whole thing pretty unattractive.  Taken further, as discussed many times, the register distance for M lenses reauires the sensor in the M cameras to be right at the back of the body.  But then, we’ve discussed this before?  It has a familiar ring to it. 🙄

[lct]

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I'm sure we have discussed this but i don't remember what the problem was sorry... 

[JTLeica]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:13 PM, rob_w said:

Yes -- totally forgot about the ZM range!  Doh!

I just wanted to ask Rob, are you still a Sony shooter 3 year after buying into the system?

[elambo]

On 5/20/2025 at 2:34 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Putting M lenses on nn-M cameras Requires an adapter, which makes the whole thing pretty unattractive. 

Who cares how the camera itself looks if M lenses offer better photos?

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, elambo said:

Who cares how the camera itself looks if M lenses offer better photos?

I do.

More to the point, M lenses work well on M cameras, the TL & CL and SL cameras.  Having played with a number of Sony cameras, with M lenses, not so much.  Anything wide (which is where the M cameras excel), and with a sony you’re struggling with smeery corners, in my experience.

I’m a reluctant adapter user - there needs to be a real gain for me to go down that route - eg, M lenses on L system cameras and R lenses, also on L system cameras.  There is a real benefit to be gained - I can’t think in my experience of anything to be gained putting an M lens on a Sony camera.

Your route clearly varies.

[lct]

26 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Having played with a number of Sony cameras, with M lenses, not so much.  Anything wide (which is where the M cameras excel), and with a sony you’re struggling with smeery corners, in my experience.

You may wish to try a Kolari mod Sony. Works well with WA and even UWA M lenses.

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, lct said:

You may wish to try a Kolari mod Sony. Works well with WA and even UWA M lenses.

Why?

[JTLeica]

7 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I do.

More to the point, M lenses work well on M cameras, the TL & CL and SL cameras.  Having played with a number of Sony cameras, with M lenses, not so much.  Anything wide (which is where the M cameras excel), and with a sony you’re struggling with smeery corners, in my experience.

I’m a reluctant adapter user - there needs to be a real gain for me to go down that route - eg, M lenses on L system cameras and R lenses, also on L system cameras.  There is a real benefit to be gained - I can’t think in my experience of anything to be gained putting an M lens on a Sony camera.

Your route clearly varies.

Yes M lenses are best on M cameras and seem second best on SL cameras. Other manufacturers like Sony / Nikon are ‘ok’ to varying degrees. But having been through the adapted lenses phase, it’s really not as nice an experience, as it is with native lenses.

[lct]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why?

The Kolari mod reduces the thickness of Sony's and other brands' sensor stacks. Allows for using lenses like Super-Angulon 21/3.4 this way. Just a snap to show the effect on my old a7r2 mod with this lens here.

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

On 6/13/2025 at 7:16 PM, lct said:

The Kolari mod reduces the thickness of Sony's and other brands' sensor stacks. Allows for using lenses like Super-Angulon 21/3.4 this way. Just a snap to show the effect on my old a7r2 mod with this lens here.

That doesn’t answer the question, really.

I have 3 M cameras, and 10 M lenses.  I don’t have a Super-Angulon 212/3.4.  I don’t really think I need another Sony of any flavour.  So, no I don’t “wish to try a Kolari mod Sony.”  I’m happy with my Leicas.

[lct]

39 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m happy with my Leicas.

So am I but you asked "Why". You got my answer for what it's worth.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

That doesn’t answer the question, really.

I have 3 M cameras, and 10 M lenses.  I don’t have a Super-Angulon 212/3.4.  I don’t really think I need another Sony of any flavour.  So, no I don’t “wish to try a Kolari mod Sony.”  I’m happy with my Leicas.

The example image indicates the extreme light fall-off, corner colour smearing and lower edge performance. Reason: even Kolari cannot shift the microlenses. 

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, lct said:

So am I but you asked "Why". You got my answer for what it's worth.

Come now - you said “you might like to try a Kolari mod Sony”.  My response was entirely on point, or rather the implication was, it would be pointless!

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

The example image indicates the extreme light fall-off, corner colour smearing and lower edge performance. Reason: even Kolari cannot shift the microlenses. 

Not the best image to convince doubters.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[elambo]

So M lenses are the better option but they make the camera itself appear less than ideal. Form > Function is in no way a strong argument for avoiding M lenses. Of course some would disagree.