Confessions of a defector to Sony

[IkarusJohn]

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19 hours ago, jaapv said:

What is silly pricing? My definition is a price at which a product does not sell. It appears to me that the Leica M sells quite well. Sensors are not “shared” as the sensor or the M is always a special design in terms of micro lenses and filters, Thus a small and über-expensive production run, electronics are not shared as they have to fit inside an antiquated body. Eg. the motherboard of the M10/11 had to be moved and split from being soldered behind the sensor That took a year of development. Obviously as many generic parts will be used as possible but you can’t simply transplant the innards of a DSLR. . 

My definition of a price is based on cost of a product of the desired quality and anticipated quantity, plus a reasonable profit, measured against market pricing.  Your measure, Jaap, is simply to charge the highest price possible before you strike market resistance - as Leica is a niche product, the sky is the limit …

However, much as I disagree with your post, I do have a suspicion that Leica has been reading the same economics books as you …

[IkarusJohn]

15 hours ago, pgk said:

Yes, they may just offer a cheap Leica lens for SL camera buyers but they will still be of limited appeal. I'm not suggesting that Leica repeals its CL decision but the demise of the CL and the rather strange specs and high cost of the M11 do signal an odd direction for Leica to move in and hardly one which is motivated by offering really useful photographic tools. I fear it indicates a desire to produce esoteric, expensive and profitable equipment at the expense of its real usability.

I think it offers a clear indication of where Leica is (has to?) heading.

If Leica does actually abandon the APS-C format (which seems to be the case, but I prefer this sort of news from the horse’s mouth), then it was not economic to continue - as good as the CL and TL2 are, they just can’t compete, as they’re not as “niche” as the M cameras or as excellent as the SL system.  I fear we may need to watch the SL - is it that much better than the mirrorless competition?  Caché of a Leica badge is only worth so much.

I wonder in a decade or two, once my TL2 and SL have died, my daughter will comment on my “quaint” camera gear …

As I’ve said before, I’d like an M camera with the latest sensor, but otherwise stripped back - think the M-E, the M(262) or a digital M-A with a meter.  As for the SL, I think that needs to head in the very best technological direction it can, with Leica’s haptics, controls and menu system - ie, a photographer’s camera, rather than a gamer’s computer.

Edited August 7, 2022 by IkarusJohn

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[jaapv]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

My definition of a price is based on cost of a product of the desired quality and anticipated quantity, plus a reasonable profit, measured against market pricing.  Your measure, Jaap, is simply to charge the highest price possible before you strike market resistance - as Leica is a niche product, the sky is the limit …

However, much as I disagree with your post, I do have a suspicion that Leica has been reading the same economics books as you …

Well, each time the price of procurement of oil gets expensive, the price of petrol goes up which fits your definition but at the same time the profit of Shell hits an all-time record. I think the books on economics have more than one chapter 

[pgk]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:20 AM, jaapv said:

What is silly pricing? My definition is a price at which a product does not sell. It appears to me that the Leica M sells quite well. Sensors are not “shared” as the sensor or the M is always a special design in terms of micro lenses and filters, Thus a small and über-expensive production run, electronics are not shared as they have to fit inside an antiquated body. Eg. the motherboard of the M10/11 had to be moved and split from being soldered behind the sensor That took a year of development. Obviously as many generic parts will be used as possible but you can’t simply transplant the innards of a DSLR. . 

Silly price is when a camera is promoted as a serious tool but in reality is actually an expensive toy. Leica has relied on its legacy for a long time. The situation today is that many cameras are capable of extremely good results at a fraction of the cost. Many things sell at high prices because they are aimed at markets which are prepared to buy them but for most of use they are overpriced and irrelevant. Very sadly, as a Leica user for over 40 years I can no longer see the viability in an over specified camera which is priced above those of other manufacturers. I am at last contemplating running a system which, even if it is poor in terms of its UI, is quite as capable imagewise and at a fraction of the cost. As I have said before, I have other things that I can spend such money on and enjoy more.

[ramarren]

I always love reading the disparagement of Leica and its products/pricing/technology/business practices/et cetera on a Leica equipment forum. It just warms my heart. 😶

To get back to the original post, I had been using Leica film gear for decades prior to the digital upheaval. About a decade after I bought my first digital camera with interchangeable lenses, I bought a Sony A7 to use with my Leica R lenses. Frankly, I disliked the A7 body quite a lot ... crappy shutter, needlessly convoluted menu system, poorly placed controls ... but it served adequately and most of my R lenses worked well enough on it. At some point, I'd had enough of the only adequate body and switched to a Leica M-P typ 240 body. Used with the same lenses and live view, despite the clumsiness of operating the M in this mode I found the photo quality with the same lenses significantly better. 

Sony has of course improved the A7 line cameras quite a bit since then, and Leica has improved the M bodies as well. But since I have a full complement of M and R lenses to do anything I might be inclined to do, and have no particular reason to divest and reinvest in anything different, I remain quite happy with my CL and M10-M bodies. The CL may well be discontinued, but it continues to make excellent photographs. The M10-M is probably one of the finest cameras I've ever used, with just the right balance of superb sensor, sensitivity, dynamic range, and control design. 

And my M4-2 body continues to work beautifully with all the same (M-mount) lenses as ever.

G

"Obsolete cameras are no more obsolete than a musical instrument."

[IkarusJohn]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, each time the price of procurement of oil gets expensive, the price of petrol goes up which fits your definition but at the same time the profit of Shell hits an all-time record. I think the books on economics have more than one chapter 

Thankfully, I think most reputable economists can distinguish between the pricing of oil (an inelastic product) and the demand/supply curve for a discretionary (some would say luxury) item like a camera.  But carry on.

[jaapv]

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Well, fortunately most reputable economists don't pontificate on the price of a product without the foggiest notion of the profit margin.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Well, fortunately most reputable economists don't pontificate on the price of a product without the foggiest notion of the profit margin.

Pontificate?  Now, you would be getting personal, would you Jaap?  Who is pontificating, exactly?  I thought it was a case of a dentist expressing his opinion, and a lawyer providing a different opinion …

I love the comment (can’t remember by whom) - Economists have predicted 16 of the last 3 economic downturns.  There’s a reason it’s called the “dismal science”

[pgk]

17 hours ago, ramarren said:

I always love reading the disparagement of Leica and its products/pricing/technology/business practices/et cetera on a Leica equipment forum. It just warms my heart. 😶

"Obsolete cameras are no more obsolete than a musical instrument."

I will continue to use and enjoy my M cameras and lenses but I will not be buying any more new stuff from Leica. As a 40 year user of M equipment I have some experience of Leica's marketing but its latest costs mean that equipment is no longer of interest to me new. I hope that sufficient people continue to buy into the M system and may buy their little used castoffs in future, This will not help Leica survive as much as buying new though.

[lct]

15 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Pontificate?  Now, you would be getting personal, would you Jaap?  Who is pontificating, exactly?  I thought it was a case of a dentist expressing his opinion, and a lawyer providing a different opinion …

Problem is when my dentist pontificates i cannot laugh .

[DoubleE]

My film cameras are Leica M, but as a professional cinematographer and film maker I use/own the Sony A7 system (I rent when the job calls for "pro" camera systems).    I chose it because it delivers stunning video quality and acceptable still images in a tiny, reasonably ergonomic package. It works with all my legacy lenses and the Sony G Master zooms are excellent.  My current Sony body, an A7 SIII, continues to blow me away with the quality of the video image. 

[bags27]

I don't mean to go all Karl Marx-alienation on everyone, but do you realize how unhappy this thread is? There's so little joy here. Very few make a living from photography. It's a hobby. It's fun. But when talking about gear, it becomes so serious, somber, anxiety-ridden.

That's a huge reason why I returned full time to film. My M10 sits for 2+ years, I use my CL rarely to scan negatives, but that's mainly with my Fuji GFX-r. I laugh at my mistakes and prize the couple of decent photos I take. But it's pure joy. I love my cameras (Leica M4-P, Mamiya 7, Rolleicord Vb(ii) and HB 500 c/m.) I don't worry about obsolescence, because they're already obsolete! I know I may be the last owner for some of my cameras because of parts shortages. So I treasure my ownership and use. I don't worry about anything tech. The only camera that even has a battery is the Mamiya and two of my light meters. I change the batteries around once/year.

Cost of film? I don't care. I shoot a roll, develop it, scan it, some post-processing. Maybe $12 including water and chemicals. But a couple of hours of pleasure. Extremely cheap therapy in a world gone mad.  

For me, at least, digital became a rabbit hole of anxiety and, at best, satisfaction. Film brings back unbridled joy and pride of controlling the entire process.

Photographers unite! You have nothing to lose but your SD cards. You have the world of film to gain! 🙂

Edited August 8, 2022 by bags27

[rob_w]

I agree. There was no intention to dump on Leica or the many excellent features of the CL. 

I made a choice that was right for me and promised to come back and share what the experience of a new system was like.  

Not everyone needs fast AF and IBIS. I do, now. But I still have a library of CL photos which gives great pleasure.  As I am sure we all do. For that matter, I have excellent photos from earlier generations like the M240 and M9, that also give great pleasure.  

I love amateur photography and I love the photos I am taking now.   As you say, it is all great fun. 

[pgk]

18 hours ago, bags27 said:

Very few make a living from photography.

Well, some of us do. And being presented with no alternative other than over specified and uneconomic models is at best frustrating.

[MJB]

19 hours ago, bags27 said:

I don't mean to go all Karl Marx-alienation on everyone, but do you realize how unhappy this thread is? There's so little joy here. Very few make a living from photography. It's a hobby. It's fun. But when talking about gear, it becomes so serious, somber, anxiety-ridden.

That's a huge reason why I returned full time to film. My M10 sits for 2+ years, I use my CL rarely to scan negatives, but that's mainly with my Fuji GFX-r. I laugh at my mistakes and prize the couple of decent photos I take. But it's pure joy. I love my cameras (Leica M4-P, Mamiya 7, Rolleicord Vb(ii) and HB 500 c/m.) I don't worry about obsolescence, because they're already obsolete! I know I may be the last owner for some of my cameras because of parts shortages. So I treasure my ownership and use. I don't worry about anything tech. The only camera that even has a battery is the Mamiya and two of my light meters. I change the batteries around once/year.

Cost of film? I don't care. I shoot a roll, develop it, scan it, some post-processing. Maybe $12 including water and chemicals. But a couple of hours of pleasure. Extremely cheap therapy in a world gone mad.  

For me, at least, digital became a rabbit hole of anxiety and, at best, satisfaction. Film brings back unbridled joy and pride of controlling the entire process.

Photographers unite! You have nothing to lose but your SD cards. You have the world of film to gain! 🙂

 

Well, it's hardly an either/or proposition.  I myself haven't shot a roll of film in 10 or 12 years, but I just love analog cameras so much that I've just bought a few rolls.  I've got sort of an ever-revolving cast of cameras in rotation, and I've started to acquire a few film cameras: an original Leica CL (50 Jahre edition!), a Contax 167MT, an Olympus Trip 35, and a Yashica Electro 35 MC (oh, and a Leica Sofort, if we're counting instant film).  They are a joy to handle, and I'm sure will be even more fun to shoot.  But I can't see them really replacing my digital cameras.  I've been too spoiled by the rapid results, I guess, and I really think the instant feedback of a live view EVF has improved my photography (it will be interesting to see if this carries back over to film shooting...). 

Anyway, my point is that there are things to enjoy about both formats.  But I have to say, what draws me to Leica's digital cameras is that they're the only ones that give me a feeling that equals that of an analog camera, in terms of design, heft, craftsmanship, etc.  And, it's a cliche, but they get out of your way when shooting.  It's funny that a feeling of nostalgia could draw me to a line of modern digital cameras, but in my opinion Leica is the only camera maker that has really gotten digital cameras right, for me.  There are some Fujis and Panasonics that come pretty close, but even they feel a bit like plastick-y toys once you're accustomed to a Leica, as snobby as that sounds.

Oh, and I wouldn't discount the high cost of film.  It's risen pretty dramatically the last 2 or 3 years, and I'm not sure it's ever coming down.  The death of film has been predicted for at least two decades, but we really may be getting close, now.  And film processing infrastructure is of course disappearing, too.  But then, I shoot color, mostly, so it's a bit more acute.  May have to switch back to B&W for my film shooting.

[Anakronox]

22 hours ago, bags27 said:

Photographers unite! You have nothing to lose but your SD cards. You have the world of film to g(r)ain! 🙂

Aw man, the pun was right there! 🤓

[bags27]

2 hours ago, MJB said:

 

Well, it's hardly an either/or proposition.  I myself haven't shot a roll of film in 10 or 12 years, but I just love analog cameras so much that I've just bought a few rolls.  I've got sort of an ever-revolving cast of cameras in rotation, and I've started to acquire a few film cameras: an original Leica CL (50 Jahre edition!), a Contax 167MT, an Olympus Trip 35, and a Yashica Electro 35 MC (oh, and a Leica Sofort, if we're counting instant film).  They are a joy to handle, and I'm sure will be even more fun to shoot.  But I can't see them really replacing my digital cameras.  I've been too spoiled by the rapid results, I guess, and I really think the instant feedback of a live view EVF has improved my photography (it will be interesting to see if this carries back over to film shooting...). 

Anyway, my point is that there are things to enjoy about both formats.  But I have to say, what draws me to Leica's digital cameras is that they're the only ones that give me a feeling that equals that of an analog camera, in terms of design, heft, craftsmanship, etc.  And, it's a cliche, but they get out of your way when shooting.  It's funny that a feeling of nostalgia could draw me to a line of modern digital cameras, but in my opinion Leica is the only camera maker that has really gotten digital cameras right, for me.  There are some Fujis and Panasonics that come pretty close, but even they feel a bit like plastick-y toys once you're accustomed to a Leica, as snobby as that sounds.

Oh, and I wouldn't discount the high cost of film.  It's risen pretty dramatically the last 2 or 3 years, and I'm not sure it's ever coming down.  The death of film has been predicted for at least two decades, but we really may be getting close, now.  And film processing infrastructure is of course disappearing, too.  But then, I shoot color, mostly, so it's a bit more acute.  May have to switch back to B&W for my film shooting.

Thanks for this. I agree about Leica digital. If one is shooting digital, it can't be beat (for what it can do; Leica doesn't pretend to do everything). I'm absolutely loving what I see coming out of the M11--so much more organic--almost like the S. But I'm still holding out for the Sigma FF Foveon, if it ever comes.

That aside, my point really is that if you read various boards, the level of equipment anxiety involving digital cameras is vastly greater than it is for film cameras. Sure, film shooters raise questions about repair, longevity, and, always always, which developer is best. But the tone of the conversation is far more convivial and easy than it is for discussions of digital. If film has reached its developmental (sorry for the pun) conclusion, digital is still evolving (expensively). And there is the gnawing feeling that you can get great digital imaging for free, just by using your cellphone.

For someone who just wants to enjoy what he has, I currently find film and film's workflow a lot more satisfying. YMMV.

[MJB]

5 hours ago, bags27 said:

Thanks for this. I agree about Leica digital. If one is shooting digital, it can't be beat (for what it can do; Leica doesn't pretend to do everything). I'm absolutely loving what I see coming out of the M11--so much more organic--almost like the S. But I'm still holding out for the Sigma FF Foveon, if it ever comes.

That aside, my point really is that if you read various boards, the level of equipment anxiety involving digital cameras is vastly greater than it is for film cameras. Sure, film shooters raise questions about repair, longevity, and, always always, which developer is best. But the tone of the conversation is far more convivial and easy than it is for discussions of digital. If film has reached its developmental (sorry for the pun) conclusion, digital is still evolving (expensively). And there is the gnawing feeling that you can get great digital imaging for free, just by using your cellphone.

For someone who just wants to enjoy what he has, I currently find film and film's workflow a lot more satisfying. YMMV.

The spending is a lot higher with newer digital gear, particularly for early adopters, who perhaps feel a need to own the latest and greatest gear while keeping up with the Jones' in terms of the spec sheet.  I think smartphone culture has conditioned us to view electronics as more disposable than they really are, with their utility limited to a period of time defined by the manufacturer.  And certainly if one is constantly anticipating the next product release, the idea of being bought into a dead system would be unappealing.  But as you alluded, film shooters are used to owning and using "obsolete" gear, by necessity.

I will readily admit that I, too, like to follow and keep up with new cameras. But sticker shock (especially with Leicas) generally makes me patient and keeps me in the secondhand market.

[albert]

I sold all of my Leica CL and Tl products. I shoot color with an Apple iPhone and BW with a LEICA Q2 Monochrome.......Life is so much easier now.

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[MJB]

19 hours ago, albert said:

I shoot color with an Apple iPhone and BW with a LEICA Monochrome.

Sounds miserable to me! 😂