Confessions of a defector to Sony

[gotium]

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Thank you, Rob, for this thorough and very useful update. I had been waiting for it!

Like you, I have been frankly shocked at the quality I am getting from non-Leica products, having replaced my CL kit with a Ricoh GRIII and GRIIIx. 

I recently took the GRIIIx to a wedding and shot it alongside a Leica M11 with the 50/2 APO. In short, the Ricoh gives up very little in IQ compared with the Leica kit: on-axis in decent light it is just as sharp and pleasing, with just as nice bokeh as the 50/2 at f/4, and is much smaller, less obtrusive, quieter, with excellent AF, macro, and and can be held in places you can’t get to with an ovf. And for 1/18th the cost! It’s not as sharp across the frame as the 50/2 and the Ricoh can’t match full-frame in low light, but really, it was an eye-opener.

I’m now traveling for 3 weeks and for the first time in years have no M kit with me - I have two little Ricohs instead.

I’d love to get Sony to work for me, but with an a7c and Sigma contemporary lenses, I just can’t get the colors right. Maybe I have the wrong sensor/lens combination?

[lct]

1 hour ago, gotium said:

I also dislike their transition to a luxury-goods brand [...]

Your dislike began in the 1930s then .

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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[frame-it]

1 hour ago, gotium said:

with an a7c and Sigma contemporary lenses, I just can’t get the colors right.

https://www.cobalt-image.com/

[rob_w]

2 hours ago, gotium said:

I’d love to get Sony to work for me, but with an a7c and Sigma contemporary lenses, I just can’t get the colors right. Maybe I have the wrong sensor/lens combination?

I did have to work on the colours in some of the pictures.  The best colour comes from the Zeiss 55/1.8 which is quite "Leica-like", but all the lenses take a bit more work than with the Leica kit, which generally is great from the time you open it in LR.  With a little practice I now know what tweaks will work best when needed.

Might try the link @frame-it just posted (thanks!) but overall I think I have it down pat now.

[Kim Dahl]

Hi Rob, thanks for the update.  It's great to read.  I think there are many of us with Leica TL and CL who think - what now?  I have bought the Canon R3 and quite a few lenses.  It is incomparable to CL.  Yet.  I use my R3 when size doesn't matter.  And now I'm going to think about buying an R5/6 which is smaller.  I am VERY satisfied with the colors in canon.  That "as an old man" I would have to live without a Leica was unthinkable a few years ago, but my canon and maybe a Ricoh  - yes, why not ? and then I sell my L Mount equipment.  I still keep my M lenses though.

[lct]

13 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

[...] I think there are many of us with Leica TL and CL who think - what now? [...] I still keep my M lenses though.

Then why not keeping your CL? It has no competitor as compact digital back for M lenses so far. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by lct

[MJB]

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42 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

Hi Rob, thanks for the update.  It's great to read.  I think there are many of us with Leica TL and CL who think - what now?  I have bought the Canon R3 and quite a few lenses.  It is incomparable to CL.  Yet.  I use my R3 when size doesn't matter.  And now I'm going to think about buying an R5/6 which is smaller.  I am VERY satisfied with the colors in canon.  That "as an old man" I would have to live without a Leica was unthinkable a few years ago, but my canon and maybe a Ricoh  - yes, why not ? and then I sell my L Mount equipment.  I still keep my M lenses though.

I don't understand this relentless need to move forward with new gear.  If you LIKE the results you're getting with your TL and CL, then isn't that enough?  Then again, if you prefer your Canon and Ricoh gear, of course that's fine, but I get the sense that you feel like you're settling.

[Kim Dahl]

I often get those questions.  1. Why don't I just stay and keep my TL2 and all my lenses?  
I don't do that because Leica no longer develops the system.  That's the short answer.  My needs are evolving and - I would like to have newly developed equipment.  Leica hasn't done anything for TL2 and CL and TL lenses for years (or for their customers for that equipment!!) - Fx images stabiliser, better AF, better sensor and you can go on.  My hope was that CL 2 had solved those problems.  Now let's face it and move on.  A system that is not supported - and does not renew, improve, develop and come up with new things (lenses and newly developed camera) dies a slow death.  Perhaps Leica has correctly seen that APSC has no future.  But then Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. have seen wrong - or what?

[MJB]

7 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I often get those questions.  1. Why don't I just stay and keep my TL2 and all my lenses?  
I don't do that because Leica no longer develops the system.  That's the short answer.  My needs are evolving and - I would like to have newly developed equipment.  Leica hasn't done anything for TL2 and CL and TL lenses for years (or for their customers for that equipment!!) - Fx images stabiliser, better AF, better sensor and you can go on.  My hope was that CL 2 had solved those problems.  Now let's face it and move on.  A system that is not supported - and does not renew, improve, develop and come up with new things (lenses and newly developed camera) dies a slow death.  Perhaps Leica has correctly seen that APSC has no future.  But then Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. have seen wrong - or what?

The fact that Leica is no longer actively developing the system doesn't suddenly render the system useless.  Must you use gear that is still sold as new in stores?  It's fine if you feel like you must have certain features that the current system doesn't offer (e.g., IBIS), but if you're already invested in multiple CL/TL bodies and lenses, there is no need to panic-sell all your gear and buy into a new system just because there is nothing new coming.

But maybe I just have an opposite mentality.  I never buy any camera body or lens brand new - way to expensive to do so.  I'm very happy with my secondhand CL and TL2, and just today bought an SL (Typ 601) for adapting my old Contax/Yashica lenses.  I haven't even mentioned my film cameras.  Oddly enough, I find that this old gear still works!  And in the grand scheme of things, the CL/TL cameras are still pretty cutting edge.

[pgk]

12 minutes ago, MJB said:

The fact that Leica is no longer actively developing the system doesn't suddenly render the system useless.

Digital cameras have been very 'fit for purpose' for quite a long time now. But.

The system you 'need' depends on what you shoot. If I could use specific lenses which suit my needs precisely, I would have to run at least 4 systems, because the precise specifications of specific lenses which are a fit with my needs are not from just one maker unfortunately. I currently run an M system for general photography because it offers most of what I want in a camera together with appropriate lenses. I also run a Sony system or specialist photography because at the moment Sony provide several very usable lenses for me, although only one is absolutely to my requirements. The others are acceptable but not perfect. To get ideal I would need one Canon and one Nikon lens. So depending on the lenses currently offered and those likely to appear in future, Sony still works for me. The lens and camera maker of choice will no doubt be tbe dictated by specific needs, and this will include both current and potential equipment.

[lct]

26 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

Why don't I just stay and keep my TL2 and all my lenses?  
I don't do that because Leica no longer develops the system.  That's the short answer.  My needs are evolving and - I would like to have newly developed equipment.

Nothing wrong in that but why keeping your M lenses then? You don't need anything new to use them with your TL2 do you. At least i don't with my CL, except that it makes me buy compact M lenses for it but it is another story. As is the CL has nothing to envy the M11, besides resolution and rangefinder, and it is even more reactive with shorter actuation and startup times actually. 

[Kim Dahl]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Nothing wrong in that but why keeping your M lenses then? You don't need anything new to use them with your TL2 do you. At least i don't with my CL, except that it makes me buy compact M lenses for it but it is another story. As is the CL has nothing to envy the M11, besides resolution and rangefinder, and it is even more reactive with shorter actuation and startup times actually. 

I have a Leica MD and leica ME (M9) also for my M lenses.  

I pretty much don't use M lenses with my TL2.  

But the M objective has a completely different story for me.  They are old and inherited from a good friend. I don't think I'll buy an M11/10 the prices of M are by now completely unrealistic.  

So in time it may well be that I sell my M lenses as well. Otherwise I use M lenses for my Leica MD. But for how long….  I do not know…. 

It is as if Leica is on its way to a completely different place than where I eventually want to go.  But I don't abandon a brand I had for over 35 years - overnight.  
 

I would like - through this Forum - to try to influence Leica to change course.  

I hope Leica would be more open and say what direction they have.  

Have they considered that their decision to stop APSC will cause some loyal customers to leave them?  

If they already have a solution, why don't they tell us?  I get very frustrated with that.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

[...] If they already have a solution, why don't they tell us?  I get very frustrated with that.

You're not alone but only Leica knows what they intend to do. Reminds me of the demise of the R system in 2009. I had a dozen R lenses then but i didn't believe that terminating a failing project was an insult to consumers. Not a reason to refrain from using a good camera like the CL to me but YMMV. BTW it seems that Sigma is preparing a Foveon based camera for 2023 or 2024 according to some rumors (link) so i would stick to my TL lenses anyway.

Edited August 4, 2022 by lct

[pgk]

31 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I have a Leica MD and leica ME (M9) also for my M lenses.  

I don't think I'll buy an M11/10 the prices of M are by now completely unrealistic.  

It is as if Leica is on its way to a completely different place than where I eventually want to go.  But I don't abandon a brand I had for over 35 years - overnight.  

I too feel that Leica is moving in a direction that doesn't realy interest me, and prices have moved upwards too far. I will keep my existing M system but I'm starting to struggle to see its absolute advantages given that I can get extremely good results, and certainly as good as I need, at much more affordable prices. I like my Ms but uprgading (even if I neede a camera of the M11's specification) is no longer going to make sense. I have other things to spend such money on. My SL has gone and several rarely use M lenses. I'll see how things move forward.

[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Sigma is preparing a Foveon based camera for 2023 or 2024

The headline might as well be “Forever Mañana” with the speed with which this project has been progressing…

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

A system that is not supported - and does not renew, improve, develop and come up with new things (lenses and newly developed camera) dies a slow death.

I guess that’s why the manual focus lenses retain their value, and sell so well; and why the M-A and MP are also still being made, and apparently being sold …

I bought my first Sony (a Walkman) in 1982, and my last Sony product in 2013 (an A7r) - over that period, if I recall correctly, Sony changed its chargers, its cables, remotes and storage media dozens of times.  One thing you can be sure of is that an A7r v is just around the corner.  The A7r iv was released in 2019 - it’s redundant …

And yet, my M-A is the same tech (with minimal upgrades) as the M3 released over 60 years ago.  The limiting factor is not the tech, but the photographer.  There will always be a latest model just around the corner (apart from a Leica APS-C camera, I guess), but has your photography really improved?  Mine definitiely hasn’t, much as I keep trying.

Edited August 4, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, pgk said:

I too feel that Leica is moving in a direction that doesn't realy interest me, and prices have moved upwards too far. I will keep my existing M system but I'm starting to struggle to see its absolute advantages given that I can get extremely good results, and certainly as good as I need, at much more affordable prices. I like my Ms but uprgading (even if I neede a camera of the M11's specification) is no longer going to make sense. I have other things to spend such money on. My SL has gone and several rarely use M lenses. I'll see how things move forward.

I agree with this.

I’m 63, and I don’t really see a new camera system, or new M camera, in my future.  I have an M-A (no electronics to go wrong, and film still available); M10-D (the electronics will probably fail, but I doubt I’ll replace it at that time); M9 Monochrom (still going strong after 10 years); and 10 M mount lenses of varying ages.  I also don’t see the M11 going in a direction that will include me.  Unlike erstwhile member PeterH, I don’t see the M11 triggering a forced sale of my M system.  Something will come along.

The SL is useful for things the M can’t do (one AF zoom, an R tele and M adapter) and the TL2 is small and takes M lenses.  If/when the TL2 dies, I’m sure there will be an L mount camera available.

[lct]

Not sure to recall when a Leica product was affordable since i got my first M in 1971 but i do see a compact M or L mount camera with global sensor and IBIS in my possible future. 

[pgk]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to recall when a Leica product was affordable .....

Relatively speaking the M8 was, I think, about half the price of a flagship Canon dSLR, the M9 a little higher. Today they two products have diverged significantly but an M11 is more expensive than either flagship dSLR or flagship mirrorless. Its difficult to equate today because specifications have shifted but relative prices of other makers are significantly lower now. Affordable is debatable.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

Apples and oranges. The M8 was an APS camera, the 1Ds a full-frame one. 
The 1DS series compares better to the Leica S  the 
M8 to the 10D