Confessions of a defector to Sony

[albert]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Different strokes for different folks🎶🎶

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, MJB said:

Sounds miserable to me! 😂 

It wouldn’t be my choice either, but iPhone images are not too bad in a digital manner. 

[MJB]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

It wouldn’t be my choice either, but iPhone images are not too bad in a digital manner. 

No argument there, but the shooting experience is terrible (to me).  The end result is the main thing of course, but part of what keeps me shooting is using cameras that are a pleasure to use.  I imagine @albert feels the same (else I doubt he'd own a Q2 Mono) but I'm guessing he mostly shoots B&W and color is more an incidental thing.  

[jaapv]

Not really. I have seen only one or two B&W shots from him over all these years. I guess he is looking for a new challenge 

[albert]

The video shot at Leica’s corporate headquarters sealed the deal. 

[jaapv]

Having experienced Panasonic I would never buy a Leica for Video use. Except of course, the occasional moving still when traveling- that can be quite desirable. 

[albert]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The video I’m talking about is a conversation between two Leica upper management engineers. A must see before judgement. 

[rob_w]

Just an update to this thread in case anyone else is tempted to move to Sony.  If you do move from Leica to Sony do check out the Zeiss Batis range of lenses in particular.  The Sony will take native E-mount lenses from Zeiss, Voigtlander, Sigma, Samyang, Tamron, Tokina, ... etc. with full EXIF and IBIS interaction for all of them.  But in addition, Zeiss make the Batis range of AF E-mount lenses specifically for Sony mirrorless.   They are rather like miniature SL lenses: sleek, rather chubby weather-sealed bodies with no superfluous switches or controls.  The difference is they are shorter, smaller and lighter than the comparable SL versions.  The Zeiss Batis 85mm f1.8 for example weighs 475gm including OIS (which works with the Sony IBIS), compared to the SL90 at around 750gm.  The optical performances are excellent.  The examples I have used all have that added magic that one sometimes gets from specific lens designs that are just right like, say, the TL35.  Aficionados talk about the Zeiss "pop" in a language Leica enthusiasts will recognise.

I mention it here because the Batis range does not get much coverage on the web and I only came across it by accident, really, and wish I had known sooner.  I suspect this is because (a) they have been released for 3-5 years so don't rise to the top for review like new lenses do and (b) they are considered very expensive versus the competition, which is often thought to be even "sharper" or wider aperture or to have some absolutely essential button the reviewer wants.  In case anyone reading this thread would like to make the same journey into exploring Sony, I do recommend you check out the Batis range.  No disrespect to anyone not interested in making that journey!

Cheers, Robert

Edited September 21, 2022 by rob_w

[Boojay]

7 hours ago, rob_w said:

Just an update to this thread in case anyone else is tempted to move to Sony.  If you do move from Leica to Sony do check out the Zeiss Batis range of lenses in particular.  The Sony will take native E-mount lenses from Zeiss, Voigtlander, Sigma, Samyang, Tamron, Tokina, ... etc. with full EXIF and IBIS interaction for all of them.  But in addition, Zeiss make the Batis range of AF E-mount lenses specifically for Sony mirrorless.   They are rather like miniature SL lenses: sleek, rather chubby weather-sealed bodies with no superfluous switches or controls.  The difference is they are shorter, smaller and lighter than the comparable SL versions.  The Zeiss Batis 85mm f1.8 for example weighs 475gm including OIS (which works with the Sony IBIS), compared to the SL90 at around 750gm.  The optical performances are excellent.  The examples I have used all have that added magic that one sometimes gets from specific lens designs that are just right like, say, the TL35.  Aficionados talk about the Zeiss "pop" in a language Leica enthusiasts will recognise.

I mention it here because the Batis range does not get much coverage on the web and I only came across it by accident, really, and wish I had known sooner.  I suspect this is because (a) they have been released for 3-5 years so don't rise to the top for review like new lenses do and (b) they are considered very expensive versus the competition, which is often thought to be even "sharper" or wider aperture or to have some absolutely essential button the reviewer wants.  In case anyone reading this thread would like to make the same journey into exploring Sony, I do recommend you check out the Batis range.  No disrespect to anyone not interested in making that journey!

Cheers, Robert

Rob, when I had the Sony A73 for a while I had the Batis 135 and 40mm, the 135 almost kept me with Sony, I absolutely loved that lens, not a small lens but weight was not excessive and the images were just beautiful. Having always been a fan of the old EF 135 f/2,  (still use it now), I liked the images from the Batis even more!

Happy shooting Rob, I'm playing and thoroughly enjoying the FpL at the moment, (madness), especially as you have found with the marvellous aps-c 18-50 from Sigma.  There are no "bad" camera's these days, just some are better for certain subjects/genre than others.  😀

 

 

 

 

 

[rob_w]

Thanks Jayne.  Great recommendation for the Batis 135 -- I will soon be penniless 😆

An FpL eh?  There is no holding you back 😂 I have to say the 18-50 is outstanding on the Sony A7, even with the crop it is difficult to distinguish from the other great lenses.

[lct]

5 minutes ago, Boojay said:

I'm playing and thoroughly enjoying the FpL at the moment

Interesting indeed. Any problem with the electronic shutter?

[Boojay]

No problems 

1 hour ago, rob_w said:

Thanks Jayne.  Great recommendation for the Batis 135 -- I will soon be penniless 😆

An FpL eh?  There is no holding you back 😂 I have to say the 18-50 is outstanding on the Sony A7, even with the crop it is difficult to distinguish from the other great lenses.

Yes I know... ridiculous.  I had been quite ruthless with myself and reduced my lens collection, and sold two camera bodies. Determined to be a little more minimal with my camera stuff.  Didn't last long😂.  

[Boojay]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed. Any problem with the electronic shutter?

 

Bought on a whim.  Saw it advertised fairly locally and met up with the seller who was a very nice chap, came home with it, complete with the large grip and the absolutely horrible EVF-11, total pain in the bu.. to fit and makes the camera feel very unwieldy.  Other than that, I like it a lot.  Love the files, the menu system is good,  moving AF point is a two press operation unless you use the partly operational touch screen, that's a bit daft.  Finding my way around it slowly, that is actually what I am enjoying about the FpL, it has slowed me down.   It helps that the camera is a nice fit for my TL lenses, still giving 25mps files.  

No problem with electronic shutter only - so far.  Only done a little indoor low light shooting.  On Saturday evening I went to visit and try to get some images of some puppies, just a few hours old, the room was very dark and quiet for the puppies and Mom's sake.  I used the 23mm TL lens on the Fpl, camera in one hand and a Moman LED light panel in my other, I wondered if it might give me some banding issues, but nothing untoward in the files. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Funny looking little rugrats!  

Off to Scotland for a few days at the weekend, CL and FpL will be coming - nice to share batteries/charger/lenses.  

 

 

 

[Dopaco]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:33 PM, rob_w said:

Caveat:  What I say here is not intended to detract from Leica, the CL or the many photographers and friends on this forum who are happy to continue using their CL and take wonderful photos.  After all, I owned a CL system myself and probably would have continued if the CL2 had come along.  My needs are particular to me and have driven my choices, for my situation.

In March this year I packed up my entire CL outfit and sold it.  For the first time in 40 years there was no Leica in the house – a shock to me and even to my family, who wondered out loud if I was doing the right thing.  I promised to report back to friends on this forum re what happened next.  This is my report.

Before I sold the CL I had intended to stay with the L mount, perhaps a Panasonic S5, but when I investigated further, I decided on a complete change to Sony instead.  Sony has a history of compact, light digital cameras, it is in their DNA so to speak.  Their sales lagged Canon and Nikon until, around five years ago, their early adoption of mirrorless technology started to pay off.  Now Sony has caught up with and perhaps overtaken their Japanese rivals, and is arguably the mainstream camera system of choice in 2022.

Enclosed inside my Leica world, I had not realised these changes were taking place.  I thought of Sony as a purveyor of tired Minolta lenses that never made first rank and a flotilla of point-and-shoot cameras for the masses.  I was by no means ready to consider them a serious alternative.  Fast-forward to now: after a lot of research and persuasion I purchased a Sony A7R4 and a set of lenses.  It has been used for several thousand pictures taken during outings, events and overseas trips. 

Here are the key points from that experience:

The camera.  The A7R4 is relatively small and compact at 660gm – a little less than the S5 and considerably less than the SL range.  My CL + handgrip was slightly lighter at 550gm.  I love: the 61Mp BSI sensor, the 5.76Mp OLED viewfinder, IBIS, tilt screen, eye-detect autofocus.  The AF is in another league: remarkably fast and accurate, easy to adjust for specific focusing intentions and to combine with manual focusing.  (No more ‘wandering focus point’!)  All the features I wanted in a “CL2” and more.

The lenses.  I started with the Sony 24G/2.8 and the Sigma 45/2.8, at 183gm and 215gm respectively.  I chose the Sigma since it is popular with SL users and was well reviewed by Sean Reid, but have since replaced it with the Zeiss 55ZA/1.8 which is a better lens in every respect: sharp at full aperture, superior micro-contrast and better colour rendition.  This Zeiss lens weighs 280gm and is 70mm long.  It has been around for 10 years and is the sort of lens Leica should have been designing when they embarked on their SL primes.  In real life usage, its performance easily matches the SL50/2.0 Summicron which I have also owned and used extensively. 

Perhaps the biggest surprise is what an open standard the Sony E mount is.  There is a huge range of lenses from which to choose.  Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander and others are all available in native E mount with the right electronic contacts for AF, IBIS and EXIF data.  Sony’s own lens designs have moved to the front of the pack.  I own the Sony 35GM/1.4 which is simply stunning from wide open onwards -- IMHO the best lens I have ever owned.

The buttons.  This was the part I dreaded.  There are indeed a lot of buttons and the menu system is unnecessarily confusing.  Nothing for it but to wrap a cold towel around my head and slog through the manual and videos for several difficult days.  That done, I now have the camera set up the way I want and don’t make any changes other than operational ones.  On the other hand, the lenses have physical aperture rings, which I like, a visible exposure compensation dial which I use all the time, and each control continues to do the same thing even when I change mode.  None of the buttons do double duty so the camera is not confusing when you are actually shooting.

The brand.  Sony is a consumer electronics company not a boutique luxury goods manufacturer, so there is no ‘white glove’ experience.  Styling is utilitarian but at least not offensive.  Products come in printed cardboard boxes and bubble wrap.  Not many will fetishise owning an A7 as a desirable object (although some do).  Prices, of course, are laughable for anyone who has lived in Leica land for 40 years.  My entire 5 lens set including a couple of premium objectives cost about the same as one Leica SL prime.

The results.  The ‘proof of the pudding’ is that the pictures variously please and amaze.  So much so that when editing it’s hard to choose the rejects.  The AF is a big factor in that.  No matter how good a lens, you only see its quality if the picture itself is in focus.  And every picture is sharp at the point of focus even in demanding conditions.

For holidays and outings, I can fit the camera and one or two lenses into the same camera bags I used for the CL and before that for the M240.  The weight difference is negligible.  I can crop any lens to 26Mp in APS-C and see the effect in the viewfinder, giving me four effective focal lengths with a two-prime day kit.  Or I can take my trusty Sigma 18-50 APS-C zoom which delivers excellent results, as many here already know. 

So I have my “CL2” with everything I wanted, and with full frame as a bonus.  Oh yes, and there is an A7R5 rumoured for release later this year, which we do expect Sony to deliver.

 

@robar_w

Where can we see your photos taken with the camera purchased from Sony? ....

[rob_w]

Well, I would love to post some examples but I don't think that would be appreciated on a Leica forum since no Leica or L mount lens is involved.  In fact, I would be breaking the rules, I think.  This site has some beautiful Batis photos taken with the Sony/Zeiss combination https://www.batisstory.com/.  I think any photographer would enjoy seeing the pictures.  I suspect any Leica photographer could get similar results with the right Leica equipment.  And, of course, the author has chosen to use Sony and Zeiss with a great result.

PS They are not B&W however.  Do hope you enjoyed some of Sean Reid's photos?  I am sure there are some articles on his site which explain his technique for selecting subjects and framing in black and white.

 

 

[Dopaco]

3 hours ago, rob_w said:

Well, I would love to post some examples but I don't think that would be appreciated on a Leica forum since no Leica or L mount lens is involved.  In fact, I would be breaking the rules, I think.  This site has some beautiful Batis photos taken with the Sony/Zeiss combination https://www.batisstory.com/.  I think any photographer would enjoy seeing the pictures.  I suspect any Leica photographer could get similar results with the right Leica equipment.  And, of course, the author has chosen to use Sony and Zeiss with a great result.

PS They are not B&W however.  Do hope you enjoyed some of Sean Reid's photos?  I am sure there are some articles on his site which explain his technique for selecting subjects and framing in black and white.

 

 

Thanks for the link, I will see it ..

[Boojay]

This seemed like the correct thread for my ramblings this morning, though I'm most definitely not a defector to Sony, not a defector at all, using as I do a Canon RF mirrorless kit alongside Leica CL/M10R ( and ashamed to say lately added FpL).   I know without a shadow of a doubt that many times I pick up my Leica kit in favour of the Canon kit simply to be able to post here, where I have enjoyed for a few years now, the words and images of fellow photographers who though we've never met, feel like friends, and of course I know share my passion (probably more of an OCD with me) for photography.

I occasionally get time off for good behaviour and jump on a plane for a few days for a solo photo centric trip to Europe, having taken my Leica kit to Venice, Rome, Budapest, Prague, few French/Spanish/Portugal trips with family, though not counting those because then it's usually in the car and I can take anything and everything with me.  This hasn't happened since pre-covid but I have been told by my other half I should "bugger off" for a few days (as he put it), apparently I deserve it😃.  Anyway, trip booked for Athens start of next month.

First thought was CL/M10R and usual collection of lenses that have been on other trips, no quandary with bags (done it all before), not getting any younger and no longer enjoy carrying too much stuff, fantastic I thought, weight around 3kgs and of course won't be carrying all that around every day, just pick suitable options for each day/evening, staying very central in Athens.   Then I looked at my Canon kit and sighed!!  Oh goodness, I'm going to miss IBIS, hands not so steady anymore, eyesight is pants these days, going to be a lot of nighttime low light shooting, given much shorter days this time of year.  That is the thing I enjoy most about these city breaks, having life and light around in the evening, so many photo opportunities I just don't get at home, to people watch etc and there is no denying how much help IBIS can be, even though I find the CL copes reasonably well with higher ISO's it doesn't come close to either of my Canon bodies.

Anyway, long story short, I listed what I would take if I went Canon only (hard to even write that), two bodies, 4 lenses, shared batteries and charger, filter size compatibility is real good too, and surprise surprise, bag weighed in a full kg lighter.  Canon have done some pretty fine weight saving with their new RF lenses, and don't underestimate the image quality. 

I know I'm very lucky - no moaning here, and trip aside there is still room in my life for both systems.   If this break was more about the experience and less about the photography I would take the M10R and 2 lenses to just record some highlights beautifully, even if some were misfocused. 😄

Hope you don't object to me sharing the above, would be interested to hear others thoughts, even if only to tell me I'm an idiot.  

And..  to Leica, I remain annoyed that you aren't giving us a CL2 with IBIS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Boojay said:

This seemed like the correct thread for my ramblings this morning, though I'm most definitely not a defector to Sony, not a defector at all, using as I do a Canon RF mirrorless kit alongside Leica CL/M10R ( and ashamed to say lately added FpL).   I know without a shadow of a doubt that many times I pick up my Leica kit in favour of the Canon kit simply to be able to post here, where I have enjoyed for a few years now, the words and images of fellow photographers who though we've never met, feel like friends, and of course I know share my passion (probably more of an OCD with me) for photography.

I occasionally get time off for good behaviour and jump on a plane for a few days for a solo photo centric trip to Europe, having taken my Leica kit to Venice, Rome, Budapest, Prague, few French/Spanish/Portugal trips with family, though not counting those because then it's usually in the car and I can take anything and everything with me.  This hasn't happened since pre-covid but I have been told by my other half I should "bugger off" for a few days (as he put it), apparently I deserve it😃.  Anyway, trip booked for Athens start of next month.

First thought was CL/M10R and usual collection of lenses that have been on other trips, no quandary with bags (done it all before), not getting any younger and no longer enjoy carrying too much stuff, fantastic I thought, weight around 3kgs and of course won't be carrying all that around every day, just pick suitable options for each day/evening, staying very central in Athens.   Then I looked at my Canon kit and sighed!!  Oh goodness, I'm going to miss IBIS, hands not so steady anymore, eyesight is pants these days, going to be a lot of nighttime low light shooting, given much shorter days this time of year.  That is the thing I enjoy most about these city breaks, having life and light around in the evening, so many photo opportunities I just don't get at home, to people watch etc and there is no denying how much help IBIS can be, even though I find the CL copes reasonably well with higher ISO's it doesn't come close to either of my Canon bodies.

Anyway, long story short, I listed what I would take if I went Canon only (hard to even write that), two bodies, 4 lenses, shared batteries and charger, filter size compatibility is real good too, and surprise surprise, bag weighed in a full kg lighter.  Canon have done some pretty fine weight saving with their new RF lenses, and don't underestimate the image quality. 

I know I'm very lucky - no moaning here, and trip aside there is still room in my life for both systems.   If this break was more about the experience and less about the photography I would take the M10R and 2 lenses to just record some highlights beautifully, even if some were misfocused. 😄

Hope you don't object to me sharing the above, would be interested to hear others thoughts, even if only to tell me I'm an idiot.  

And..  to Leica, I remain annoyed that you aren't giving us a CL2 with IBIS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can sympathise and understand all your choices. I also get a week off for good behaviour once a year when I go to Arles for the photo festival - this year was the first time since 2019. Earlier in the year I sold the CL system in favour of the Q2 (small, light, full frame, image-stabilised, near-silent shutter, cracking lens.........aren't you tempted?), so that came with me. To prevent things being too easy and to add photographic rigour, I also took a Leica II Model D with 5cm Summitar and rolls of Delta 400. All without the angst of being a Leica defector (so I didn't take my Gandolfi 4x5 with Fujinon and Nikkor lenses.....).

Edited October 13, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[rob_w]

Just back from a trip to the New Forest on the southern coast of the UK.  My Sony and two Batis lenses weighed in at 1.4 Kg so no problem to carry for long walks around Lymington or Blackwater Arboretum.  Like Jayne I was tempted to keep and use some L mount gear just so I could continue as an active member of this forum, but the photos and the experience with the new kit continue to delight all by themselves.

[Boojay]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I can sympathise and understand all your choices. I also get a week off for good behaviour once a year when I go to Arles for the photo festival - this year was the first time since 2019. Earlier in the year I sold the CL system in favour of the Q2 (small, light, full frame, image-stabilised, near-silent shutter, cracking lens.........aren't you tempted?), so that came with me. To prevent things being too easy and to add photographic rigour, I also took a Leica II Model D with 5cm Summitar and rolls of Delta 400. All without the angst of being a Leica defector (so I didn't take my Gandolfi 4x5 with Fujinon and Nikkor lenses.....).

😄 Wondered who would be the first to try and tempt me to Q2 and a simpler life.  Did have a Q for a quite a long time,  if I remember correctly I took it to Rome on my last visit but I'm always at the long end of whatever zoom lens is mounted, other than that 50mm is probably my most used prime focal, if I added a Q2 I would still feel the need to pack for longer, even though you can crop you are still using that ((less than) 28mm lens, wonderful that it is.