New Info Regarding "No more circuit boards in Wetzlar to repair the M6 Classic"

[Huss]

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1 hour ago, grahamc said:

how is our new m6-DAG-tear-down fund going ?

I want to wait until I actually get it, then ask DAG if he's up for it.

 

[RAW]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Danner:

So, can they fix M6 Classics, or not?

 

Not currently, maybe someday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0nfZ4JAy2Q  (from 15:19 to15:40)

 

[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, Huss said:

I think this is more "inaccurate" information pushed out by Leica marketing to get people excited.  Same like the "all new" under the skin stuff.

What has Leica's marketing actually said on the matter? I haven't seen anything on the subject. Both on the circuit board/meter issue and new-under-the-skin stuff? I have only seen @jonoslack's comments which didn't come across as marketing department speak.

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What has Leica's marketing actually said on the matter? I haven't seen anything on the subject. Both on the circuit board/meter issue and new-under-the-skin stuff? I have only seen @jonoslack's comments which didn't come across as marketing department speak.

Hi Paul

I don't usually speak to marketing, so no marketing department speak! I've actually had some more discussion recently, it appears that the new supply chain will ensure that Leica can continue to repair the M6, MA, and MP (and of course the M6 reissue) for the foreseeable future, It is still difficult to get and train new technicians to work with the old cameras, which may have an effect on repair times.

11 hours ago, Danner said:

So, can they fix M6 Classics, or not?

Yes . . . as I understand it.

I hope this is helpful 

[UliWer]

11 hours ago, Huss said:

 M6 Classic internal light meter: The MP light meter can’t be implemented in the M6 Classic. Leica is working on a solution! *hooray!*

The solution will be available on November 2nd.  It is called the new M6.

There is a video available about a presentation of the new M6: 

In this video it was asked what the introduction of the new M6 meant for repairing the "old" M6 Classic. The man from Leica said, that the new M6 has the electronics of the MP. It was not possible to implement the electronics of the MP/M6 new in the "old" M6 Classics. He explained that Leica was trying to find a solution to make this possible but he was very clear to state, that one does not know yet, if these trials would be successful in the end,. So he could not and would not promise that there would be solution. 

[Huss]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Paul

I don't usually speak to marketing, so no marketing department speak! I've actually had some more discussion recently, it appears that the new supply chain will ensure that Leica can continue to repair the M6, MA, and MP (and of course the M6 reissue) for the foreseeable future, It is still difficult to get and train new technicians to work with the old cameras, which may have an effect on repair times.

Yes . . . as I understand it.

I hope this is helpful 

The “as I understand it” is not a Yes.  Sorry Jono.

Leica cannot repair the M6 classic’s meter.  There are no parts, and the new meter in the new M6 is the same meter that is in the MP. That meter’s parts are not replaceable in the classic M6.

In the German video presentation they explicitly say the meter parts are not replaceable.

Can Leica service the old M6?  Yes, as long as it does not involve the meter.  Then again, so can any Leica tech.

[LocalHero1953]

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Que sera, sera.......🎵

[BradS]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:44 AM, Helge said:

Yes, they won’t give the boards away for a bargain; development, production, replacement and programming will cost a lot (considering the very low volume), same for the top plates (except programming 😉)

 

On 7/4/2022 at 8:31 AM, Matlock said:

And that is the point. Very Low Volume. It spite of the doom and gloom posts we often find on this forum (and others), the failure rate of M6 electrics is very low.

Yes, low volume is exactly the point.

There's nothing magical about the M6 classic light meter circuit. It is the kind of circuit that a BSEE student at a respected university might propose and successfully do for the senior project. If it were proposed, it might actually be rejected as too simplistic. The only marginally interesting thing about the circuit is the way the LEDs indicate half stop under/over exposure. If not for that feature it would be the kind of circuit that a second or third year undergrad EE major would be expected to do in a three hour lab. The other real world difficulty would be to make it fit in the existing space.

The low volume and relatively low sales price make it a non-starter for anybody other than Leica to do.

Edited October 31, 2022 by BradS

[Huss]

2 hours ago, BradS said:

 

Yes, low volume is exactly the point.

There's nothing magical about the M6 classic light meter circuit. It is the kind of circuit that a BSEE student at a respected university might propose and successfully do for the senior project. If it were proposed, it might actually be rejected as too simplistic. The only marginally interesting thing about the circuit is the way the LEDs indicate half stop under/over exposure. If not for that feature it would be the kind of circuit that a second or third year undergrad EE major would be expected to do in a three hour lab. The other real world difficulty would be to make it fit in the existing space.

The low volume and relatively low sales price make it a non-starter for anybody other than Leica to do.

Famous last words but.... how expensive can a new meter board be for the M6 classic?  Compared to stuff now, as Brad mentions, this is really simple stuff.  Was it even high tech in the 1980s when it came out?  Then again, what actually is the demand for them?

[BradS]

48 minutes ago, Huss said:

Famous last words but.... how expensive can a new meter board be for the M6 classic?  Compared to stuff now, as Brad mentions, this is really simple stuff.  Was it even high tech in the 1980s when it came out?  Then again, what actually is the demand for them?

One of the photos in the redit thread mentioned above shows a schematic and an actual prototype circuit used. From that glimpse, we see that it was implemented in discrete components- resistors and transistors. Not exactly trivial but hardly high tech…and at the time it was really the only choice (microprocessors in the early 1980’s were too big and too power hungry).  Today, it would be fairly trivial to implement with a pico-power micro controller like an Atmel ATmega and a few hundred lines of C.  It’s just three inputs and two outputs. It would probably take longer to read and understand the ISO spec than to actually do the hardware design.  The firmware would also not be difficult once one understands the ISO specs.  It might be difficult to fit in the original space …or not?  Oh, and you’d have to reverse engineer the camera interface a little or get cooperation from Leica. Then there a bunch of supply chain and manufacturing issue that are outside my scope of knowledge.

Frankly, Leica ought to be able to do this pretty easily. It’s just a matter of priorities. It’s not gonna be a profitable endeavor for anybody to do. We’re talking about at least $100,000 in NRE for a product that maybe, retails for $250? How many can they sell? Therefore, it only makes sense for Leica to do it out of consideration for existing users and good-will. 

I publicly offer my services to Leica for the price of 100euro a day plus plane fare and room and board!  

Edited November 1, 2022 by BradS

[Anbaric]

Alan Starkie is probably our best hope if leica doesn't step up:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

[BradS]

Ooof….yeah, looks like the “fitting it in the available space” could be a bit challenging. 

[RayD28]

@jonoslack Thanks for sharing the discussion with Leica.  

"I've actually had some more discussion recently, it appears that the new supply chain will ensure that Leica can continue to repair the M6, MA, and MP (and of course the M6 reissue) for the foreseeable future, It is still difficult to get and train new technicians to work with the old cameras, which may have an effect on repair times.

Regarding the repairability of M6 Classics:  "Yes ... as I understand it".  May not be a definitive Yes, but it's definitely not a No.  

To me this is a game changer since it eliminates the worries about M6 Classic's meters.  I'm sure the meters won't be cheap, pushing he cost of a used M6 + CLA + meter close to the cost of a new M6.  But still the peace of mind knowing that your M6 Classic will be fully functional for decades.  

Let's hope for the best.

[Anbaric]

23 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

To me this is a game changer since it eliminates the worries about M6 Classic's meters.  I'm sure the meters won't be cheap, pushing he cost of a used M6 + CLA + meter close to the cost of a new M6.  But still the peace of mind knowing that your M6 Classic will be fully functional for decades. 

But reading UliWer's comments on the German language video above, it seems that (for the meter at least) this is not cut and dried, and a replacement board for the old M6 does not yet exist. So I wouldn't assume anything unless or until there's an official announcement, or someone actually has an old M6 repaired with a new board fitted.

It would be nice to have proper English subtitles for that video, incidentally - looks like there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but YouTube's machine translation does a poor job.

[Huss]

Leica doesn't have time to make old M6 parts.  Because is it focused on releasing a new M7, called the M7, which is like the old M7 except they finally got rid of the DX reader and are offering it in black paint.

All kidding aside, how many M6 meters have actually failed?  Every single one I've tried have been working like champs, which is really impressive given they are almost half a century old.

[Matlock]

13 minutes ago, Huss said:

Leica doesn't have time to make old M6 parts.  Because is it focused on releasing a new M7, called the M7, which is like the old M7 except they finally got rid of the DX reader and are offering it in black paint.

All kidding aside, how many M6 meters have actually failed?  Every single one I've tried have been working like champs, which is really impressive given they are almost half a century old.

Exactly, over 132000 M6s produced and, I suspect, a miniscule amount of failures. However that won't stop the "doom and gloom" merchants on this forum predicting the demise of all M6s within the next fortnight.

[Huss]

2 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Exactly, over 132000 M6s produced and, I suspect, a miniscule amount of failures. However that won't stop the "doom and gloom" merchants on this forum predicting the demise of all M6s within the next fortnight.

I just think it is unrealistic to expect Leica to re-tool for 5 affected users.

[Mikep996]

The meter on my M6 quit years ago while I was on a trip in Scotland.  😱

 

 

 

Fortunately, a local corner store had the correct batteries!  🤣

Edited November 1, 2022 by Mikep996

[BradS]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

I just think it is unrealistic to expect Leica to re-tool for 5 affected users.

especially considering that three of the five have already had the board replaced.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Homer Dulu]

This is from the Leica social media team so it might not be the best source, but this definitely looks promising. Reddotrepair did comment in the thread, saying the same thing about needing a Leica computer to calibrate the MP meter. But still, it seems like there will be an availability of circuits. Wonder if that also includes the TTL, they didn't address that specifically.