Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[hdmesa]

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5 hours ago, otto.f said:

That's not enough, for instance in my second example where the man raises suddenly his arm and the woman responds to that with the same. There is no time for anticipation.

 

We're not in a courtroom here, come on! What are we here for if members cannot trust each other in sharing experiences. If it's accidental, then the example is irrelevant to post here.

 

Isn't having the camera at the ready, pre-focused, and finger on the shutter button anticipation? I posted a photo showing I captured the person walking across the street at the exact stride and moment I wanted to. Technical threads do have a courtroom tone, largely due to people asking for proof of things.

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[hdmesa]

(post removed)

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by hdmesa

[lct]

7 hours ago, lct said:

Shutter lag is not my problem. I measured what is of interest for me, i.e. the total duration of the shutter actuation: close, open, close, open. My measures were taken at 1/60s and i always found 320ms. I have no experience with M10 cameras but i seem to recall that i measured 210ms in RF mode on my M240. Was 7 years ago when i beta tested a firmware for the M240 so my memory can fail me.

I confirm 210ms for the M240:

 

 

[hdmesa]

@lct – If you wouldn't mind, would you update to the new M11 firmware released today and re-test single shot mode with a recording again? I think they may have fixed the delay to reopen the shutter at the end of the exposure in single shot mode.

Edited August 3, 2022 by hdmesa

[Ornello]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:21 PM, SrMi said:

It is not a problem as long as it bothers only people who don’t use the M11 😉.

I have used Leicaflex SL and SL2 cameras for 50 years. I am so used to the very brief 'lag time' that I sometimes amaze myself. I used to photograph college football, and several times when I would photograph a kickoff, I was able to catch the kicker's foot in the ball, the ball compressed but still on the tee.  This one is a fraction of a second late, not taken by me:

https://thecomeback.com/nfl/what-does-football-look-like-after-kickoff-no-more.html

Edited August 3, 2022 by Ornello

[lct]

43 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

@lct – If you wouldn't mind, would you update to the new M11 firmware released today and re-test single shot mode with a recording again? I think they may have fixed the delay to reopen the shutter at the end of the exposure in single shot mode.

Not my feeling at first glance but i'll do it tomorrow.

[hdmesa]

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8 minutes ago, lct said:

Not my feeling at first glance but i'll do it tomorrow.

Thanks. Probably just wishful thinking on my part that it's fixed 🙂

[lct]

Shutter actuation time has not changed as suspected. Still 320ms for the M11 vs 210ms for the M240 and 110ms for the digital CL. 

 

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[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Shutter actuation time has not changed as suspected. Still 320ms for the M11 vs 210ms for the M240 and 110ms for the digital CL. 

 

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Thanks. Also – dammit 

[hdmesa]

Messed around with recording this myself. Verified exact same times as @lct

In addition to the delay to reopen the shutter, it also looks like they are intentionally reopening the shutter very slowly.

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[geotrupede]

just to add my humble observations. 

I am not shy at pointing at issues, but if one thing, the responsiveness of M11 is superb. Once it has awaken (which takes forever) shooting is fast. No lag here, I would not have known of any difference to previous generation if it was not measured. Which means, despite a measurable difference, there is not practical nor perceived difference. Used to M9 series, SL2S and film units. All about the same.

[mike3996]

I had the pleasure of visiting a genuine Leica Store in Oslo last month, and I had the chance to witness the infamous shutter in person.

There's no shutter lag.

At least I define the lag = the time from triggering the shutter to the start of the exposure. It's instantenous, to my surprise.

In audio terms, the attack is very short and there maybe is a prolonged decay but what the hell do I care? I got my shot. It's only the attack that I care when I want to be timing my frames. Attack = shutter lag.

The mechanism as a whole is pleasantly dampened. The long reopen is probably partly because of recoil control.

~

I own and shoot an MP240 myself. Would gladly go for M11 if the finances allowed. Based on the internet FUD I had my reservations about M11 and the crumbling traditionality of an M camera, but M11 isn't the model that breaks the camel's back.

Edited August 8, 2022 by mike3996

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, mike3996 said:

I had the pleasure of visiting a genuine Leica Store in Oslo last month, and I had the chance to witness the infamous shutter in person.

There's no shutter lag.

At least I define the lag = the time from triggering the shutter to the start of the exposure. It's instantenous, to my surprise.

In audio terms, the attack is very short and there maybe is a prolonged decay but what the hell do I care? I got my shot. It's only the attack that I care when I want to be timing my frames. Attack = shutter lag.

The mechanism as a whole is pleasantly dampened. The long reopen is probably partly because of recoil control.

~

I own and shoot an MP240 myself. Would gladly go for M11 if the finances allowed. Based on the internet FUD I had my reservations about M11 and the crumbling traditionality of an M camera, but M11 isn't the model that breaks the camel's back.

I have the same experience as far as getting the shot and feeling like it's instantaneous. No lag.

Where we disagree is in the "decay" part of the shutter cycle. The delay to reopen the shutter doesn't bother you, so that's great for you. But what does "recoil control" even mean? What purpose does the long drawn-out reopening of the shutter after a shot serve? It could be to reduce shutter wear, but if that were a concern, it wouldn't reopen so fast in continuous mode, and we would have the option to not close the shutter at power off or when it sleeps (an option which we do need added). Heck, why not add the same delay to the SL camera if the delay serves a purpose (rhetorically-speaking)?

In any case, the delay to reopen the shutter in single shot mode doesn't ruin the M11 experience for me, but it will be much better IMO if they fix it. And they could easily fix it so that single shot works just like multi-shot with regard to reopening the shutter. Leica is now aware of the issue at least – maybe we will see it fixed.

[MrPaulK]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

but if that were a concern, it wouldn't reopen so fast in continuous mode,

I disagree with that rational, though. You design for best reliability and function, and they don't always coincide. It would be a perfectly sensible compromise to allow a little extra shutter wear for the (likely) infrequent continuous mode, but try to minimize it for single shot mode where it doesn't affect function (well, technically, but clearly affects some users use of it)

[hdmesa]

9 minutes ago, MrPaulK said:

I disagree with that rational, though. You design for best reliability and function, and they don't always coincide. It would be a perfectly sensible compromise to allow a little extra shutter wear for the (likely) infrequent continuous mode, but try to minimize it for single shot mode where it doesn't affect function (well, technically, but clearly affects some users use of it)

It's one shutter movement out of every four shutter movements that happen when a shot is taken. I'm fine with them drawing out the open/close at power-up and power-down but not when it's part of the sound the shutter makes to take a single shot. The current drawn-out noise of the last shutter movement is as long as the noise generated from the three shutter movements that precede it! Well worth the extra wear, IMO (should there be any).

At some point, we'll have our answer if they fix it or don't fix it.

Edited August 8, 2022 by hdmesa

[MrPaulK]

Well, "fix" is an interesting word. If they change it, it might be because it was a bug, or they might just decide the leica user grief isn't worth it. Of course, they'll never share (I so want to read the internal discussions on this stuff)

[mike3996]

15 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Where we disagree is in the "decay" part of the shutter cycle. The delay to reopen the shutter doesn't bother you, so that's great for you. But what does "recoil control" even mean?

No need to get riled up. I only wrote about my impressions and how it applies to me. Even if I sigh of relief when I determined the shutter's fine for me, I continue to appreciate other user's experiences and woes.

I brought "recoil control" up because over the years of digital M cameras there has been some on and off conversations about shutter shock. In one thread of recent years, there was a following argument: M240 and M10 had loud shutters but little shock in the pictures. Then some reports started to come in when the dampened shutter of M10P was introduced and then the discussions got louder when the highrez M10R was introduced. Some people felt the very dampening of the shutter lead to the extra shutter shock. The kinetic energies misdirected or something, I don't righly know enough to make my own definite argument about it.

In contrast to those threads (when M10R was the newest and latest), some people went on quickly favoring the M11's comparatively shockless shutter in the beginning of the year. (I am sure I could find a thread or two about M11 shutter shock if I wanted to spend my hours that way...)

Whether or not there was a fault in the M10P shutter, the engineering department at Wetzlar has obviously introduced new concepts with M11 shutter and I don't think they'd knowingly make the shock any worse.

[LocalHero1953]

As designers make lighter full frame cameras, shutter shock must be an significant trade-off consideration. The first full frame mirrorless was the SL and perhaps that was heavy enough for it not to be a problem. The next was the Sony A7 which was notorious for shutter shock. The Q has no issues because of the leaf shutter, but the M10 made a big reduction in weight over the M240, so the extra shutter movements involved in liveview must have increased the shock risk. The M11, with its lower weight and full time liveview, must have increased the risk even more, so it's to Leica's credit that shutter shock is not one of the issues that is reported with the new body.

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[lct]

I'm no techie but it doesn't seem to be a shutter shock matter at first glance since the delay occurs when reopening the shutter after the picture is taken.

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, mike3996 said:

No need to get riled up. I only wrote about my impressions and how it applies to me. Even if I sigh of relief when I determined the shutter's fine for me, I continue to appreciate other user's experiences and woes.

I brought "recoil control" up because over the years of digital M cameras there has been some on and off conversations about shutter shock. In one thread of recent years, there was a following argument: M240 and M10 had loud shutters but little shock in the pictures. Then some reports started to come in when the dampened shutter of M10P was introduced and then the discussions got louder when the highrez M10R was introduced. Some people felt the very dampening of the shutter lead to the extra shutter shock. The kinetic energies misdirected or something, I don't righly know enough to make my own definite argument about it.

In contrast to those threads (when M10R was the newest and latest), some people went on quickly favoring the M11's comparatively shockless shutter in the beginning of the year. (I am sure I could find a thread or two about M11 shutter shock if I wanted to spend my hours that way...)

Whether or not there was a fault in the M10P shutter, the engineering department at Wetzlar has obviously introduced new concepts with M11 shutter and I don't think they'd knowingly make the shock any worse.

Not riled up at all, and it was not my intent to come across that way.

The shutter movement in question (with the delay) is the fourth movement that happens after the shutter closes to finish the shot. No shutter shock is possible from that last moment, which is the reopening of the shutter to resume metering. Shutter shock, if it happens, would come from any of the first three shutter movements that all happen very quickly, not the fourth.